Blizzard decided to hold off on Dire Maul’s release until Phase 2 after vocal community feedback; in their own words: ..we recognize that Dire Maul is in a different category. Some of the loot that’s attainable from Dire Maul is so good that it would affect progression through those early raids. Additionally, they decided to gate easily obtained, extremely powerful items that were added in patch 1.10 until Phase 5: We’ve gone back and reconstructed many of the most heavily affected drop tables as they existed prior to the 1.10 patch, and we’re planning to update the drop tables alongside the Ahn’Qiraj War Effort.
While these are great decisions, it’s not enough. There’s loot that has existed since day one of vanilla but was updated in later patches that made it extremely strong for how easy it is to get, much stronger than Dire Maul loot. And this loot, according to latest datamining in the alpha client, is going to have its 1.12 stats on Classic’s release. If Blizzard is truly committed to an authentic vanilla experience this loot needs to be dealt with in the same way Dire Maul loot was, and their statements about reconstructing pre-1.10 loot tables means they have the data to do it.
Some examples of pre-raid BiS loot that was updated in Phase 5 as a catch-up mechanism but is going to be available in Phase 1 and its authentic alternatives (where applicable):
Ban’thok Sashhttps://itemization.info/item/11662 vs. Star Belthttps://itemization.info/item/4329 (note: it’s extremely rare to have spell hit in Phase 1, and on a belt slot it’s rare in general)
Savage Gladiator Chainhttps://itemization.info/item/11726 vs. Cadaverous Armorhttps://itemization.info/item/14637 (note: this easily obtainable epic chest from BRD is BiS til AQ40 and could even be BiS til Naxx if you don’t need more hit)
Bloodmail Bootshttps://itemization.info/item/14616 vs. Battlechaser’s Greaveshttps://itemization.info/item/12555 (note: due to Bloodmail already having the 1% hit on feet slot, its direct upgrade Chromatic Boots from BWL are not a big deal as they should be)
Brigam Girdlehttps://itemization.info/item/13142 vs. Omokk’s Girth Restrainerhttps://itemization.info/item/13959 (note: Brigam having 1% hit means you can choose Voone’s Vice Grips from the LBRS quest instead and that will give you an additonal 2% hit in Phase 1)
Rosewine Circlehttps://itemization.info/item/13178 vs. Fordring’s Sealhttps://itemization.info/item/16058 and Eye of Orgrimmarhttps://itemization.info/item/12545
Windreaver Greaveshttps://itemization.info/item/13967 vs. Swiftwalker Bootshttp://itemization.info/item/12553
Additionally, some examples of blue/epic PvP gear that was updated in patch 1.11 and is going to be available in Phase 2 (equivalent to 1.4/1.5). Specifically, pay attention to the updated blue set 2-piece bonus which is BiS until AQ40 for many classes:
Warrior Blue Plate Chest (Rank 8)https://itemization.info/item/16513 vs. https://itemization.info/item/22872
Rogue Blue Leather Chest (Rank 8)https://itemization.info/item/16505 vs. https://itemization.info/item/22879
Warrior Blue Plate Helm (Rank 10)https://itemization.info/item/16514 vs. https://itemization.info/item/23244
Rogue Blue Leather Shoulders (Rank 10)https://itemization.info/item/16507 vs. https://itemization.info/item/23258
Warrior Blue Plate Shoulders (Rank 10)https://itemization.info/item/16516 vs. https://itemization.info/item/23243
Warrior Epic Plate Boots (Rank 12)https://itemization.info/item/16545 vs. https://itemization.info/item/21688 (available in phase 5)
Warrior Epic Plate Legs (Rank 12)https://itemization.info/item/16543 vs. https://itemization.info/item/22385 and https://itemization.info/item/22651 (both available in phase 5)
Warrior Epic Plate Shoulders (Rank 13)https://itemization.info/item/16544 vs. https://itemization.info/item/21330 (available in phase 5)
Blizzard is not going to go into that much depth progressing every item of the loot table. Not to mention that very few are going to hit rank 12 much less before AQ is released.
They don’t have the DB table data for pre-1.12 items anymore. So now, they’d go from updating the tables they do have for the new DB, to having to research and manually input the table data for every item.
I want to avoid trivializing content as much as possible, but That’s an insane amount of work. You go from copy/pasting tables and making minor syntax updates, to a complete DB overhaul plus having to set in the updates for later…
Exactly. Not only it is an insane amount of work but very risky in term of balancing. Since they don’t have a backup of the database earlier than patch 1.12, they’d have to rely patch notes, internet databases and other design docs that they hold on to. Many of the values set in the database are hidden to the client so they have to be made up.
I prefer to have the game mostly how it was in patch 1.12 than having bugs/exploits caused by items stats that were made up. Also, I want to play the game this summer, not in 4 years.
That’s not what they said. Pretty sure they said something along the lines of “we looked through what we had, and settled on 1.12 as it is the most complete patch”
I think it is silly, thinking a company like Blizzard don’t make proper back-ups. Them saying back then they didn’t have the data, was just to stall people off the subject. Even the “wall of No” preached that as one of the reasons we couldn’t have vanilla.
Yeah…that is what is going to trivialize progression…
15 years of experience trivializes progression more than updated itemization, 1.12 talents/warrior threat, and 16 debuff slots ever will. MC will most likely be cleared on most servers before the second reset with a partial raid containing players under lv60. If you were to transport those same raids back in time to the retail vanilla launch…they would most likely still clear it in the same amount of time, at most they would be delayed a few days.
That’s not what they said. Pretty sure they said something along the lines of “we looked through what we had, and settled on 1.12 as it is the most complete patch”
Pretty sure that they said they had back-ups of the code (since working without any sort of version control software would be suicide) but they didn’t have that for the database back then. So their backups were probably made literally by copying the database from time to time. They might had a back-up of an earlier version but they didn’t specifically said it. They surely don’t have a back-up for it at any point in time from back then.
So are people suggesting they change the game plan at this point? Even IF they have any prior DBs, and that’s a strong IF, they’d either have to manually go through all the tables on both to make changes, or scrap everything they’ve done so far and start a new DB from scratch by updating table structure and syntax from a prior DB version.
Personally, I don’t think either of those are reasonable, unless you want to aim for a 2021 launch date.
People said the same thing about Vanilla Servers (aka Wall of No) and later on the PvE content phases.
If you don’t fight for something, it will indeed never change.
The OP has a point. From phase 2, you will have available equipments that is better than raids that won’t even be released yet (e.g. BWL). I don’t understand how anyone would be fine with this when we are talking since the beginning of getting the authentic vanilla experience.
And it will be a massive outcry once people realize this issue when Classic is released. To be honest, I am planning on farming the High Warlord anyway, it is fine for me. But those who can’t commit the time necessary for the title will be truly mad that they have to wait Phase 5 to start catching up with the people who have the PvP gear.
This is absolutely false. How were they able to reconstruct all the pre-1.10 drop tables in all of the dungeons if they don’t have the data? them doing that tells us they at least have 1.9 data, possibly even earlier than that, and 1.9 data is enough to eliminate all the major offenders that I listed in this topic.
I think some of us, including myself, may have misunderstood what they were saying. It seemed as though they had to hunt hard for even the 1.12 DB and potentially didn’t have earlier version. Unless they directly say, “We have the DB for every single patch version” it can be assumed that they don’t, or that they do.
It will be fine. The game will play well and most of us will enjoy every minute of it. There will be hand wringers who can’t let go of the obvious fact that things won’t unfold exactly as they once did. That’s life. I, for one, trust that Blizzard is doing all they can to make Classic as faithful to the original as they can.
Yes, it will trivialize progression, because it’s not just these items that I listed here; itemization touches almost every item in the game in every patch and it’s crucial for raid balance to get it right.
But, even disregarding that, I think the bigger issue of no progressive itemization is your own personal character progression. Getting an easily obtainable epic chest from BRD right after hitting 60 in Phase 1, from an event that can be 2-manned and that chest being BiS until AQ40 or even until Naxx in case you don’t need the hit is super hamrful to the feeling of progressing your character and getting meaningful upgrades. And this is just one example, there are many of these and you’re free to browse https://itemization.info and see for yourself.
You contradict yourself in your statement … You trust them to make the game as faithful as the original but you are fine with them implementing weapons within the second patch of the game that won’t be matched until the release of the fifth phase, which could be as long as a year later?