A weak comparison for another point that is still related to CL. Saurfang is one of two bosses that I can remember where it makes sense to glyph CL… putting CL at its absolute best. Every add spawn yields four targets to be hit with CL. I think this makes Saurfang the absolute best of circumstances for Ele (no movement AND add cleave) and they still don’t even break into the top half of the rankings.
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Ele and Enh are both way down the dps ranking and deserve a buff.
Unfortunately, blizzard is pretty much finished with WotlkC and are working on CataC now.
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It absolutely is. On fights with movement, its #3 because some of the ranged like affi lose a little bit. On other fights where the ranged can keep up, its tied for whatever is behind mage. It absolutely is a top 3 spec. If you want to argue its a top 4 or 5 thats fine but note its also within a 1% margin of those classes.
The tier order is Feral above everything gapping them by like 5%, then its fire mage, ret, affi, and hunter, and then its everyone else. Ret is 5% ahead of warrior.
You can pretend its fine because you enjoy the benefit of uneeded arbitrary buffs, but everyone can see the data. Lucky for you, the senior game producer plays ret, so reshuffling the entire meta was an acceptable result to him lol.
Go ahead. Keep growing the army. Maybe someday you’ll get back to your 5,000+ clowns! (And there’d still be less buffoonery than you on a daily basis.)
Oh, you mean like lich king? A fight with lots of movement?
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1020#boss=856
Where ret is 7th?
When the ret has to move, the terrible ret mobility kicks in. We don’t have extra sprints, intercepts, etc, to get back to the boss after we have to move.
Saurfang is only a movement fight for ranged, which obviously skews melee up in the same way Festergut does.
When both groups have to move, ret falls off.
Where’s fury on that fight? Oh, right, tied for first… on the only super challenging fight in the game, fury is the best DPS.
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HLK is a good example for another reason too. Only the top guilds are getting it down. So they have very close to full bis (including Shadowmourne).
This doesn’t include the ICC buff yet either. Warriors can expect to start to firm up their positions in the leading pack more and more now.
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As predicted, rets get the early powerspikes from TaJ and setbonuses but warriors simply outscale them.
This was always going to be the case, the early weeks would be skewed like that cause of getting something as big as TaJ, but of course, Abralan wouldn’t listen and kept doing his 2 lines nonsense cause he doesn’t understand scaling in the slightest.
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I think he secretly does. He’s claiming ignorance because his motives are selfish.
He wants rets nerfed so furies get SM and ferals nerfed so furies top dps meters (again) once everyone is in BiS.
nerf feral, fury, fire, and ret.
buff shaman
ty
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They have plans to buff shaman in the next major patch. Aren’t shaman godlike in cata?
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no. rsham is bad. ele needs a legendary to be good. enh is meh at best
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H LK is a pointless analogy. Look at how many people are doing it, their comp, and the gear on the players at the parse bracket youre looking at.
Like Dysebomb the top warrior is literally wearing 100% bis, they even gave him the 284 ranged wpn over the hunter lol. Does that raid have a ret main character in full bis? Its a classic hallmark of a weak argument to look at extraneous or tiny sample sizes.
When I look at heroic festergut by contrast, its a MASSIVELY larger parse pool. Tens of thousands of logs in a fight where warrior and ret have basically the same gameplay hopping between feet during malleable goo. Ret is a solid 5% ahead in pretty much every bracket.
Ret does more damage than warrior. Its a top 3 spec if you are willing to group classes together that are within 1% of each other. The game is literally tiered as #1 is feral by a lot, #2 is mage and sometime affi based on mechanics and #3 ret and survival hunter based on mechanics. Then everyone else a whole tier below that as ret is 5% ahead of warrior.
But of course youre going to cherry pick extremely tiny extraneous irrelevant samples to make your point because the bulk and overwhelming evidence says youre wrong.
Another thing about lichking is warrior can pretty reliable proc enrage on that fight, where in a lot fights its either hard or you literally can’t without taunting the boss itself. Only 1500 warrior parses on H LK while over 2k ret parses. Contrast with Festergut where Ret has 40k parses and warrior has 32k.
Took about 10 posts to teach you what a parallel line was. 9th grade geometry. You told everyone that percent dps gained in a phase is what scaling was, and dug in hard, despite being 100% wrong. Its irrelevant because the lower the starting number the higher the % gained by default. I.e. if you did 1k dps and gained 2k dps to do 3k dps you gained 200% damage, but if you went from 10k to 12k that same 2k dps is only a 20% increase. Your assertion is that the first class is scaling harder because its getting 200% more dmg instead of 20% but in reality they scaled the same. You are mixing up multiplication and additive values. They in reality scaled the same, as they both gained 2k dps. The problem for the first class is it just started off super low so its always going to be 9k dps behind for infinite if they were parallel scaling. Eventually, doing 100k v 109k dps is a much smaller gap but the gap persists as 9k.
By contrast, if the first class scaled better, it could eventually catch up, or even surpass the latter classes’ dps because its scaling better, i.e. not parallel anymore. Now, because of the games mechanics, nothing is truly “parallel” but you can find the averages between the tiers and smooth out the line to see that it was mostly parallel for many classes.
If you did tank and spank dps of all the classes right now, its not a whole lot different than phase 1 its just that the armor pen classes went from last place to middle of the pack, and the gaps between the top and bottom is no longer 45% but 15% probably (again, tank and spank). This is because as the top end has gone up, the same dps gap represents a smaller percent of the overall gap.
Prob a waste of time to explain this to you as it will woosh but I think you got it now as youre trying to insult me as if I made your mistake.
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I mean, it shows that fury does significantly better than ret on a fight that isn’t just “Stand there and do rotation.”
And is also the only fight in the game that significantly has a challenge, so… fury is a great pick on the hardest fight, and isn’t lagging behind ret at all.
Which skews the warriors downward because they are definitely harder to gear compared to ret. As you climb ilvls and percentiles, the things shift toward the warrior. It’s not just RNG doing this. Fury passes ret by the 95th percentile, and has a noticeable advantage by the 99th.
It did this. Unless you think going from literal bottom in Naxx to top 3 in single target potential isn’t doing that… The only spec that makes warrior’s current top potential look bad is feral, which yeah, no one except feral druids thinks that makes sense.
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sample size is very small, and its also never been debated that in cleave situations warrior is fine. If you look at the LK parses, it includes raging spirits and valks. Valks spawn in groups of 3. So you can WW 4 targets and cleave 3. Its perfect. Then you look at the gear on the warriors doing it (full bis and the expense of the raid) and it skews the picture even more. Then you consider that you got clowns that warp their damage even further so that warcraft logs is constantly changing their rules. How many of those top parses have ppl like Ahlaundo telling his raid to give him more cleave damage? lol. I remember when they had to remove the Algalon adds because he would tell the raid to stop dps so he could cleave them as long as possible.
Your point that warrior looks fine on the hardest fight is a valid point. But a massive problem for you is that on NORMAL which has mostly the same mechanics relevant for dps (less valk hp though) Ret is actually beating warrior on Lich King 
When the sample size goes from 1500 to 40,000, you get a better picture, oops.
Feral is an exception obviously to my general statement because blizzard handed them a 15% buff. Ret also got what is now like an 8% buff. In phase 2 it was 20% and 10% respectively but scaling/tier sets etc changing the overall % a bit.
and limited to the best players, which eliminates the effect you rely on to make ret look way better than fury:
significant gearing differences and lower skill fury warriors in the mix.
I mean, ret also can do that. Warrior appears to get more out of it.
Again, until the upper parse percentiles, where warrior wins, and some of those best players are self selected to hard mode at this point.
Yeah, the feral buffs were obscenely overdone.
It’s tough to get mad about the ret ones making ret about the same quality as a fury warrior though… better at low skills, fury wins at the highest skill caps. If you play both a ret and warrior at their highest possible output, the warrior pulls ahead, like it has in every tier.
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This makes 0 sense. Ret is a bit easier than warrior, as you can randomly mash keys and do 99% of your potential, but fury at this point isnt much different. These arent the “best” players as much as theyre players that will exploit warcraft logs through letting 1 player hoard damage, or funnel 100% of their bis to them. Small sample size is ALWAYS a red flag for data. Not every time, but usually its not great, and if you have access to a large sample size and intentionally pick the small one, its an even greater red flag.
While true, there are a lot more warriors doing it. Why or how is a longer debate. Is it residual from classic? Class archetype? Class players? Its very easy for me to find warriors doing this but less so with ret.
Ahlehaundo is ilvl 275 and his raid’s ret is 264 for example.
Its laughable if you think that a ret mashing spells or a warrior mashing BT, WW, and slam are going to make a significant difference. The biggest skill gap at the top end with the low end is typically mechanics and awareness, not who can hit blood thirst and whirlwind harder.
when you pull 40k sample size parses on other heroic bosses, this is 100% not true. You have to selectively find microscopic sample sizes with 15 ilvl gaps between players to make your point. You dont have a point. The ret and feral buffs were unwarranted. Ret has a ton of utility. As you can see, ret is parsing A LOT more than warrior now in terms of quantity, in all modes of the game. Paladin as a whole is #1 and warrior still at the bottom. A travesty.
You dont need to do any of that in order to get 95 parses or the odd 99. It’s a really tiny portion of players that do that kind of exploiting.
Correct, which leads to the least time spent not doing their rotation. Skill is a large umbrella of things.
Looking at the 95th percentile (which is hardly an impossible/exploity range to meet)…
Fury beats ret on…
Marrowgar (+297 dps)
Lady Deathwhisper (+755 dps)
Gunship (lol) (+94 dps)
Lich King (+966 dps)
Ret wins on
Saurfang (153 dps)
Festergut (+22 dps)
Rotface (+132 dps)
Putricide (+45 dps)
Blood Prince Council (+96 dps)
BQL (+220 dps normalized)
Sindragosa (+135 dps)
Arms wins on
Valithria (133 dps over fury, 181 dps over ret)
So, right now, it’s looking like ret has a tiny advantage on single target fights at the 95th percentile (where you can basically assume proper rotations, appropriate gearing, and solid encounter play), and warrior enjoys a lead where cleave happens.
It’s hardly gloom and doom for warrior in the DPS department, and they are still the 6th most used DPS spec in hard mode ICC, and as you approach the 95th percentile, they are scored at 4th best spec (from 7th at all percentiles). Ret drops from 6th to 7th doing that. At the 99th fury is 3rd and ret is 6th.
Overall, balance between ret and fury looks pretty reasonable. Neither one of them are being avoided, both seem valuable to raids now, dps is similar, and a lack of utility doesn’t appear to be hurting warrior, nor does it look to be making ret overused. (fire mage is the only ranged dps that’s looking significantly overused by parse count)
Interestingly feral druid is just flatly behind fury in representation (only about 70% of the fury population) even considering that it’s definitely stronger, and has flexible utility.
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depending on fight there are 10-25% more rets parsing. Ret beats warrior in almost every imaginable scenario except BiS geared top end cleave situations. If you look at top 10 lvl skewed stats theyre within .01% of each other but when you look at larger sample sizes of tens of thousands of players ret pulls ahead by a solid 5%.
Ret also has tons of utility that warrior has 0 access to, likely contributing to the higher play count. Ret has 10-25% more parses than fury and Prot paladin has 20x as many parses as prot warrior.
Its almost as if the balance choices made in 2010 would have been totally fine and Aggrend didnt have to make classic his own private server. Hm.
Yes, completely unrelated to scaling.
That’s why trying to “teach me” was pointless.
It’d be the same if I started prattling on about the color of warrior tier sets. Could it be an interesting discussion? Possible (although I have some doubts).
Would it be relevant? No, not even a little bit.
And the funny thing is you’re still bloody trying to do it.
That’s.
Not.
How.
Scaling.
Works.
And I’ve said as much every single time you’ve brought it up cause it’s not relevant.
Eh, the rets performing at those levels generally aren’t bringing much in the way of utility worth noting. They certainly don’t have DSac in a 95% parse, or anything else that you wouldn’t just get better from a feral druid’s battle rez and innervate.
At this point, the majority of the considerations are on DPS for those slots once your passive buffs/debuffs are covered.
You toss in a ret for 3% damage so that you don’t need an arcane mage, and it has replenishment as a bonus.
Similarly, you still bring the warrior for the minor stuff it has, like comm shout, shattering throw, sunders…
Largely the view is on DPS output, which warriors are good at now. It’s really not hard to cover all of the buffs/debuffs/defensives that you need. If you were going to stack utility after that, it’d be druids or locks, not rets.
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