Probably time to roll back the class changes, Rets and ferals way too high on expected DPS

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
624

This is a lot of things that holy paladins and prot paladins can do, and you probably already have those.

I can basically guarantee this won’t happen. Ret could do all of this on Algalon too, but was never stacked for it. After your holy pal + prot pal, you basically don’t need more DSacs / aura mastery / BoPs, etc…

You naturally have enough paladins to cover all your paladin utility needs before you put a ret in your raid.

After people aren’t dying to mechanics, you just go for best DPS to minimize how long the fight goes. That’s why ret was generally sat on Algalon prior to the buffs. It was better to just kill the boss rather than have an extra backup DSac/BoP.

It largely is. Mana constraints are rare in the first place. You don’t need full coverage of replenishment on everyone. There’s a huge diminishing return on it after the first.

If the ret buffs were reverted, you’d bring 1 arcane. Their damage isn’t bad, fire is just better.

Sometimes. How many do you need?

2 is a hard cap, they don’t need 100% uptime.

How many of these do you realistically need? It’s not an more is always better deal.

All of these marginal gains are weighed against Ret’s DPS. If it isn’t good, none of them are worth bringing a ret for when already covered elsewhere and you gain a marginal benefit.

Ret was largely sat on Algalon, a fight that theoretically used ALL of the things you listed, and it wasn’t used, needed, or helpful because it wasn’t worth the loss in DPS to bring marginal defensive benefits to your raid.

625

Going to be running a ret with dsac for hlk prog but won’t be stacking them, you can’t really have enough HoJ for valks, nor dsacs for infest and u definitely want atleast 2+ sources of replen, there’s no shot a ret doesn’t make the comp

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626

Yeah, you really want your hpal going in to HoJ a blood beast on Saurfang, who puts out massive tank damage. Same for valks on LK.

The first is literally eaten by pets and feral druids. We’ve been over this.

And? Your hpal can’t judge when he’s spamming holy light to keep the tank from getting obliterated. Ret removes this problem.

You can’t have your prot paladin or holy paladin kill themselves with DI on Saurfang lmao

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627

you can’t really use hpala hoj on saurfang, presuming that your hpala is towards the back of the platform which is the obvious place for them to be, they have to go on a trek to get there and even if they did they might end up splashing the ranged dps they ran over to get there and feed saurfang runic power, also you don’t need to DI on saurfang

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628

Sure, but it’s essentially a ret-only utility on that fight. Also very thematic, especially for Alliance paladins! Though I guess Seal of the Martyr doesn’t exist anymore…

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629

There are a lot of stuns and slows in the game. You are probably going to be fine with those without either a ret or holy paladin using HoJ.

And it lasts long enough to be used again before it drops off, which goes on new players. It does not always go on the pets and ferals every application. After 2 your spriest and Surv Hunter apply it the second time, it’s probably on every Mana user, and stays there.

Holy light is very minor healing on most fights. If they can’t afford the GCD once per 30s, it’s fine.

An incredibly niche upkeep of a minor heal on melee only isn’t a reason to take unbuffed ret.

Oh boy, 1 fight that’s not all that difficult in the first place, that can also be made easier with more DPS.

You won’t be stacking rets in your raid for Saurfang. You’d still cut them if they were too low on DPS (the more important metric on that fight that also reduces how many debuffs you have to deal with).

So yeah, you identified one fight in the raid where rets can make it slightly easier by keeping up light and maybe using a DI. That’s hardly a reason to stack them. If you removed the buff, you still probably don’t bring the ret for any of this.

630

replenishment is not a smart buff, it goes on pets and stays there until those players have less mana numerically than the pets, 1 replenishment is almost completely worthless, unless you enjoy giving felhunters mana

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631

Whether you would be “fine” with something worse is kinda beside the point. You could bring a lot of worse things to almost every encounter in the game and still complete it. There’s only one stun as long as HoJ, and it requires 5 combo points. It’s obvious that HoJ is the best option, offering the largest window of safety for melee to nuke a blood beast. And you want two (the prot and the ret) for every BB spawn, if I’m not mistaken.

That was never an argument I made, so…

I think this is where I stop replying to you.

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632

Alternatively you can have the prot get first stun, rogue get second since they will have plenty of time to build combo points. Warrior can also stun. The gains of ret there is marginal, and again, weighted against its DPS.

Meant judgement of light, not holy light.

But it’s still a very minor heal on any fight that’s not Anub, and even on heal intensive fights like Saurfang, does nothing to remove the need for spam healing on the debuffed targets.

It’s not going to matter much if your holy paladin suddenly couldn’t spare the global cooldown to refresh it.

That deep in the fight the prot pal could even swap to light, as the JoW becomes the less useful judgement if you need the added heal.

633

You think I can build combo points on the first blood beast spawn to use on the second, or what?

Prot warrior only.

It seems like you forgot that we were talking about you saying that fury and ret have effectively the same level utility in 25m. I wasn’t talking about stacking ret or ret’s utility making them worth taking. I was just pointing out how absurdly wrong you are when ret utility is worlds above fury utility, even when other classes bring some of the same abilities.

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634

And it’s not, but pulling up the logs from my last Jaraxxus kill, we had 2 replenish sources and pretty much all of the Mana users had it the vast majority of the time.

A 3rd would be overkill.

Because they do… you are resorting to referring to one specific fight in a raid to prove your point with examples that are all pretty marginal and definitely unnecessary to get a kill. It certainly also doesn’t do much for the rest of the raid, so when one of the easier bosses has some things ret can do, that’s not much of a reason to bring one the rest of the time.

None of that is enough that a guild would excuse ret being at arms level DPS to bring in, just like guilds don’t typically use arms warriors to bring the 4% physical debuff.

Ret had to be the best source of at least one of its utilities if it’s going to have a raid slot in an optimized group. It can’t just be a bad source of a bunch.

635

you have 1 warlock in your raid and its on the pet the entire time, if you have 5 warlocks and 1 replenishment, it goes on everyone that you don’t want it to go on

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636

Yes, not arguing that 1 replenishment isn’t enough. The argument was that a Surv Hunter and Shadow priest would not be able to cover a raid, which is false unless you have more than like, 15 Mana users. Even if you did, the third replenishment (your theoretical ret) is a pretty minor gain given that many of the Mana users aren’t at risk of running out of Mana anyway.

637

5 warlocks + 5 pets = 10 mana users, most people cannot cover their raid with 2 replenishments, the 3rd one is the most valuable infact, because the people with the highest numerical mana pools (aka the holy paladins) are chosen last by replenishment because they have the highest numerical mana

If Phuufum the warlock pet has 7459 mana and dave the holy paladin has 7460, it will choose phuufum every single time

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638

Except it doesn’t really matter.

Assuming your 5 warlock pets are always soaking it, replenishment 2 means your 15 lowest Mana players are getting replenishment.

Once the higher Mana casters start to drop lower, they start getting the replenishment as well, so it bounces around your casters as needed. No one is getting shafted with 0 replenishment uptime. Most have it the majority of the time, with a small delay on some of the casters dropping low enough to start getting it.

The actual difference in your time to run out of Mana (the only thing that matters, and for many casters even without replenishment this is longer than the fight) is not as large for replenishment 3.

639

Your 2nd replen isn’t enough because you need 3 or else you never reach the holy paladins which means that they lose 400mp5 until it lands on them, which it doesn’t do until they have <11k mana, you are costing paladins thousands and thousands of mana by doing this but it “doesn’t matter” somehow

15 minute LK fight, 2x hpala =800 mana per 5 seconds is only 144,000 mana i guess, no worries

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640

I literally described several ways that ret utility far outstrips fury warr utility. Including a specific example of something only ret can do. Actual clown comment.

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641

We are all wasting our breath atm.

Blizzard will not change the game based on sims, they will wait for actual data, and even then it’s slim to none they do any further changes unless someone falls massively behind the pack or runs massively ahead of everyone else.

They do not care where you end up in the group, as long as it is a group.

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642

There’s no need for everyone to have 100% uptime on replenishment. The buff spreads out pretty evenly as needed.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yB1TJtwC2H7GZmK9#fight=3&type=resources&spell=100&source=11&view=events

2 replenish sources here (myself and a Surv Hunter), it took about 3s for the pally healer to start getting replenishment.

I’m missing where this thousands of mana lost is coming from.

Sure, and on Vezax, arms warriors could bring a mortal strike that has 100% uptime, pummel, and the 4% damage buff along with a shout!

… but none of that matters because you wouldn’t slot in an arms warrior the entire night for Vezax because it has bad DPS. Ret doesn’t have a second DPS spec to sit in until that utility is needed, so it makes zero sense to penalize them on DPS the entire time it isn’t.

Rare instances of utility doesn’t make a spec brought more unless you literally need it to get a kill.

643

we’re going around in circles, you have 1 warlock and jojoslit is the 2nd to last person chosen, if you had even a singular affliction lock you would push him out of replenishment range, you run like 5 more melees than a normal guild too

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