Can you relax man? You advocated for the Ret Buff, then defended it. Immediately after you started talking about how warriors and rets have the same utility. No they don’t, no one but you even argues that because it’s nuts. I personally don’t think utility matters at all for dps and is a holdover from everquest but regardless, shouldn’t you stop trolling these threads? I’m fairly certain I remember you agreeing that at some point warriors would need some form of tuning to bring them more inline with actual wotlk or at the very least being sympathetic to it. ffs dude, chill.
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Doesn’t matter.
Hybrid is a hybrid. They don’t balance around how “hybrid” a hybrid is and what spells they bring.
Yeah, I’m not sure you read the post you quoted but I’ve never said it did. Just not what I see as hypocrisy. Btw, you don’t actually think they are balancing based on hybrid status, do you?
Not anymore no, but originally that’s how wrath was balanced.
Now they balance if your dps (while specd in your best damage spec) falls below their “floor”. If you are anywhere above that they don’t care where you sit.
Yes, I totally agree with this part here. 
Thanks.
Because that’s what it is 
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Imagine that, Ret and Feral doing good in a raid full of undead, and for the most part, static bosses 
So making Seal of Vengeance/Corruption work as the tooltip says it should work and how it works in other specs doesnt make sense?
I also do not understand people complaining about 50-60dps currently.
It’s pretty simple, they want rets (and by extension, prots) to suffer cause “they’re mean booboo heads”.
It’s a pure quality of life change that absolutely will not help them if removed, they just want other people to suffer.
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50-60 dps means the better player gets Shadowmourne first. It just looks like there are more bad Fury players than there are Ret players which is hilarious in itself if you ask me.
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What happened to all of the talk about how good warriors scale and how bad Ret scales that was used to try and justify Ret buffs?
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wait they nerfed ret over there?
No, they don’t.
But it’s irrelevant that they don’t.
In a well built raid though, either you are getting similar utility amounts out of your fury and ret (because your ret is probably your 3rd or 4th paladin), or maybe a bit favored in terms of the ret if they sacrifice a decent chunk of DPS for divine sacrifice.
Your ret might be full sacrificial and bring a bunch of utilities that your raid lacks, but if they are doing this, they aren’t beating fury on the damage meters. Our best utility costs us DPS to have.
I’m not upset, nor trolling. I’ve generally been consistent that fury warriors are pretty much fine post Naxx (although welcomed your QoL buffs to make the spec less clunky to optimize), that prot war could use some buffs, and that fury would be a top tier spec in ICC if they get everything they want.
All of that is still true. People are just freaking out over sims putting ret slightly ahead on single target damage (and I do mean slightly), and are back to complaining about perceived utilities that the sim spec does not have, and the vast majority of other utilities are overlapped.
That sim spec basically allows a mage to be fire instead of arcane, and gives some extra replenishment to your raid. Maybe it lets a shaman drop healing stream totem instead of the Mp5 one, and if you aren’t running a prot paladin, maybe it has vindication to save someone from using demo shout GCDs.
Is the utility on the spec bad? Absolutely not. Is it worth these threads demanding paladins lose the 1k DPS from earlier buffs so that even with Smourne we are mid tier (and trash tier without it)? Also no.
This is still true. Warriors scale well. Without Smourne they are firmly mid tier. With it, a top tier damage (no one who knew what they were talking about said they would be the actual top possible DPS, just close enough that if you are good, you can top your guild’s meters).
So fury warriors naturally scaled up from the absolute bottom of the meters in Naxx, to firmly mid tier by ICC, with a legendary that jumps them to top tier.
If ret hadn’t gotten the buffs, without Smourne they would be at basically meme tier spec levels of DPS, and with it, get to mid tier, but good luck getting one, or even a raid slot in those conditions.
And that would still have been with a super strong 2pc bonus, and a hideously broken trinket in our favor. So rets would have needed all of that, and still fell behind everyone else on damage unless also given a legendary. The spec’s scaling was crap.
The buffs basically made ret’s scaling pattern match warriors (and it still wouldn’t have matched warriors if someone more than a decade ago didn’t absolutely fumble on programming tiny abomination in a jar).
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Just say delete bears. That’s what your suggestion would do.
We’ve beaten this topic to death over the years. There are 2 schools of people on this. Group A believes that all DPS/Tanks/Heals should be equal when they are doing whtever roll they are filling. Group B believes that your dps/tankiness/heals should be dependent on the number of rolls your class is able to fill and the combat utility you bring. I am in no way advocating for either group just trying to synopsize the arguments I’ve seen.
Group A:(basically retail at this point)
(this group will usually say they dont care about “their” class - but they do)
Any dps - within 2% of each other as long as my class is top
Any tank - within 2% as long as my class has highest survivability/threat gen
Any healer - within 2% as long as my class has biggest heals/is the most desired
Group B:(old mmo crowd - maximum class diversity)
DPS:
Rog/mage - always fighting for top dps since they cant do anything else
hunter/lock - high dps but always below rog/mage cuz they get a pet(usually spawns a wholly different QQ thread consisting of “we’re PURE dps too” posts)
warrior/sham/dk/priest - below above because you can fill a second roll
pal/dru - below above because you can fill 2 other rolls(doin it all)
TANKS:
(see above reasoning and insert) War/DK > Pal > Dru
HEALS:
(see above reasoning and insert) Priest/Sham > Pal > Dru
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Yeah, how’d this work out again though?
Paladin → holy (unless you were incredible lucky with your guild, then you might get to play ret for memes).
Shaman → resto (same as above for enhance I guess).
Druid → resto and at least these guys got to play bear too, but balance and cat?
Meanwhile, warrior be like “IM NUMBAH ONE”.
So the B crowd has never actually had what they wanted, they just want that numbah one 
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Yeah, it’s largely different design philosophies.
The one WoW went with was the “everyone does about the same damage, regardless of utility, but pures do slightly more,” one once Wrath started.
They forever struggled with getting those numbers right, but that’s the design goal in WoW from this point onward.
The utility justifies your raid slot design was left behind in TBC due to how rigid it made raid comps.
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I’m not disagreeing. Personally, I fall somewhere between A and B. No class should ever have so much desirability that it benches other classes, but I also don’t want it so similar that we’re basically doing the same thing with different sparkles.
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There’s just certain things classes need to perform a certain role.
Such as a taunt and mitigation abilities for a tank.
For DPS this happens to be… damage. If you don’t do damage as a DPS you’re simply thrown aside. For good reason.
Yeah, you can mitigate some of the pure-damage a class brings to keep in mind that class diversity can mean less disenchanted gear → more raid dps, even if the class itself isn’t the top performing spec. I think modern players at high level circumvent this by running splits, though, so basically a lot of these minmax arguments boil down to what the top performers do (and what people may try to emulate), but it’s still mostly true at lower (average) levels, you bring good players that maybe isn’t a “perfect” comp, but all the gear gets used and your guild is better for it.
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