Pro Changers take heed

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

I was going to make a huge post on this, but the fact that time was a huge factor in all of this is huge. Doing MC and BWL in one night just wasn’t possible, or at least very difficult. More time for bosses dying, not only will make game play more authentic, but it will make raiding more of a “grind”. Will MC be easy still? Absolutely. Will it stop serious guilds from clearing it quickly once the new meta has been figured out? Nope.

However, doing Naxx 4 times a week will be impossible if you do AQ40, MC, and BWL also. Want your thunderfury? Sorry, gotta give up a Naxx raiding night to do that.

The “grind” should take a toll. Not as huge as it was in Vanilla, but a guild shouldn’t be feeling “fresh” (pun intended) going into Naxx. Getting a guild to stick together to even progress into Naxx was a big deal.

oh i’m not going to disagree about the time commitment changing. i’m just saying overall the bosses weren’t that hard.
i’m looking at running my own guild (or co running, or running by committee, you get the point), and i hope MC isn’t a complete cakewalk.

[Xanthak-durotan (Xanthak)]

You and me both. I’m still on the fence about playing. I’ll probably wait a month or 2 to see how it pans out.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

How are you this stupid my dude?

Your argument pertaining bad design, that is 100% completely based on opinion. I do not believe it is bad design and 100% of vanilla design could be argued as bad design but all arguments in favor that it is bad design should be brushed under the rug as we are asking for VANILLA, not vanillaish retail. So you are wrong here.

As for economy, why do you need actual proof when you could use common sense? Lets say there is a server with 3000 people. For argument sake lets make up guesstimates. Let’s say 10% of people will respec for 50g on average a week. 300 people x 50g is 15,000 gold. Considering respecing is arguably the only real gold sink in the game outside of repairs this gold will continue to inflate and prices of things WILL increase in time as more people will have more gold to spend. That is proven fact using common sense.

and take note. thats 15,000g per week. 60,000g per month. 720,000 gold in a year. not being removed from the game.
and it assumes they only respec once per week, when those who did, usually did 2. once to farm spec and once back to raid spec. so you’d have to double all that.

[Xecks-stormrage (Xecks)]

was it between 1.1 and 1.12? then it is vanilla and open for debate. i have no qualms about a possible frankenpatch.

if it helps make the older raids less trivial go for it.

question for you though - when and where were people clearing MC in greens?

people werent clearing mc for months after launch. there were los issues where you would be right on top of someone and wouldnt be able to heal them due to los.

[Enhancelord-korgath]

And I could argue that the number I made up is astronomically low considering some people respec multiple times per day to farm or pvp or raid. I just made this number up as an example.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

was it between 1.1 and 1.12? then it is vanilla and open for debate. i have no qualms about a possible frankenpatch.

if it helps make the older raids less trivial go for it.

question for you though - when and where were people clearing MC in greens?

people werent clearing mc for months after launch. there were los issues where you would be right on top of someone and wouldnt be able to heal them due to los.

i understand this. my point was that i would be fine with a frankenpatch for the game. stuff like having old 1.5/1.6 av, with pre 1.11 threat values and 1.12 talents. as an example.

[Xecks-stormrage (Xecks)]

i understand this. my point was that i would be fine with a frankenpatch for the game. stuff like having old 1.5/1.6 av, with pre 1.11 threat values and 1.12 talents. as an example.

i would be for 1.5 av but not much else.

the only way the 1.10 and lower threat values would work and them not have to mess with anything else (which lets face it i dont trust them) is to make the 1.11 threat changes to be an aura in the naxx zone .

but i dont trust them to do that and theyve shown no intention to do so.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

i understand this. my point was that i would be fine with a frankenpatch for the game. stuff like having old 1.5/1.6 av, with pre 1.11 threat values and 1.12 talents. as an example.

i would be for 1.5 av but not much else.

the only way the 1.10 and lower threat values would work and them not have to mess with anything else (which lets face it i dont trust them) is to make the 1.11 threat changes to be an aura in the naxx zone .

but i dont trust them to do that and theyve shown no intention to do so.

i just think pre 1.11 threat would help with keeping mages, rogues, locks, and warriors dps from going off the deep end a bit, and help keep all the content just a bit more relevant.

[Xecks-stormrage (Xecks)]

i just think pre 1.11 threat would help with keeping mages, rogues, locks, and warriors dps from going off the deep end a bit, and help keep all the content just a bit more relevant.

im not so sure of that to be honest. good tanks could hold alot of aggro around aq 40 level. hell good tanks were able to hold vs most classes going full bore prior to that if the dps class used its aggro reduction.

sadly sitting and doing nothing for half the fight cause you are riding aggro is not really fun imo.

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

i would be for 1.5 av but not much else.

the only way the 1.10 and lower threat values would work and them not have to mess with anything else (which lets face it i dont trust them) is to make the 1.11 threat changes to be an aura in the naxx zone .

but i dont trust them to do that and theyve shown no intention to do so.

To be honest given that even Patchwerk has a pretty low DPS requirement all things considered, I wouldn’t mind seeing what players can do with Naxx pre-1.11 threat.

It might be insanely hard, but provided it’s still feasible I’d be okay with that. Naxx is supposed to have a legendary quality to it based on how few people ever cleared it back in the day.

[Xecks-stormrage (Xecks)]

To be honest given that even Patchwerk has a pretty low DPS requirement all things considered, I wouldn’t mind seeing what players can do with Naxx pre-1.11 threat.

It might be insanely hard, but provided it’s still feasible I’d be okay with that. Naxx is supposed to have a legendary quality to it based on how few people ever cleared it back in the day.

and that godly thing to it included the post 1.11 threat levels.

you wont be doing naxx without them.

hell i only got 4 bosses down in naxx 40 with my guild.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

To be honest given that even Patchwerk has a pretty low DPS requirement all things considered, I wouldn’t mind seeing what players can do with Naxx pre-1.11 threat.

It might be insanely hard, but provided it’s still feasible I’d be okay with that. Naxx is supposed to have a legendary quality to it based on how few people ever cleared it back in the day.

and that godly thing to it included the post 1.11 threat levels.

you wont be doing naxx without them.

hell i only got 4 bosses down in naxx 40 with my guild.

“only” got 4 bosses. in a raid that only something like 63 guilds cleared.

[Xecks-stormrage (Xecks)]

“only” got 4 bosses. in a raid that only something like 63 guilds cleared.

spider wing and instructor . the ez bosses in there. i dont feel like its something i can brag about.

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

To be honest given that even Patchwerk has a pretty low DPS requirement all things considered, I wouldn’t mind seeing what players can do with Naxx pre-1.11 threat.

It might be insanely hard, but provided it’s still feasible I’d be okay with that. Naxx is supposed to have a legendary quality to it based on how few people ever cleared it back in the day.

and that godly thing to it included the post 1.11 threat levels.

you wont be doing naxx without them.

hell i only got 4 bosses down in naxx 40 with my guild.

I think in Classic we’ll see guilds progressing up to Naxx a bit quicker. Information is more readily available, and even if they did use pre-1.11 threat we’re still using 1.12 balance for everything else. It wont be this “first week clear” that some people go on about, but definitely faster than what happened in Vanilla.

Theoretically it’s possible, but that’s only theorycrafting which is why I said I’d like to see what the playerbase could do with it.

If Naxx is doable but insanely hard even for top guilds, I don’t really see that as a bad thing.

[Gnocci-emerald-dream]

Have monkeys flying out of my gnomish butt been shot down? No? Then clearly that’s open for discussion.

[Xecks-stormrage (Xecks)]

I think in Classic we’ll see guilds progressing up to Naxx a bit quicker. Information is more readily available, and even if they did use pre-1.11 threat we’re still using 1.12 balance for everything else. It wont be this “first week clear” that some people go on about, but definitely faster than what happened in Vanilla.

Theoretically it’s possible, but that’s only theorycrafting which is why I said I’d like to see what the playerbase could do with it.

If Naxx is doable but insanely hard even for top guilds, I don’t really see that as a bad thing.

there are fights in naxx that one aggro pull will wipe the entire raid. its not fun or “challenging” when that happens. its bad design.

as to the people will clear naxx quicker? ya some probably will, but it wont be that way for the rest of us and im sure it will not be cleared as easily as the pserver people think it will either.

[Matcauthon-steamwheedle-cartel (Matcauthon)]

Have monkeys flying out of my gnomish butt been shot down? No? Then clearly that’s open for discussion.

now i got pop on my keyboard. thanks.

[Thermalaise-twisting-nether (Thermalaise)]

Also the new models ruined my ponytail on my Shaman and I’m still bitter about that.

My nose miraculously grew back. Still pissed.

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

there are fights in naxx that one aggro pull will wipe the entire raid. its not fun or “challenging” when that happens. its bad design.

as to the people will clear naxx quicker? ya some probably will, but it wont be that way for the rest of us and im sure it will not be cleared as easily as the pserver people think it will either.

The problem is that by using threat values designed for Naxx, you more or less sacrifice a great deal of the challenge in the rest of the PvE game except AQ40.

Personally if not doing the zone-wide aura thing(which I would be okay with), I’d rather Naxx take a hit than virtually everything else in PvE. Provided that Naxx is still doable.

I don’t think that Naxx will be easier than some people suggest, but with the reduced difficulty of lower tiers it’s going to be a brute force deal. More people will be able to get up to Naxx and, as a result, more people will clear it.

[Narya-kirin-tor (Narya)]

Meanwhile, I think you’re underestimating how many people, coming from retail, are going to be starting at the level of, “Hey guys, I tried to go into Naxxramas but it bounced me, what’s going on? Attunement? What’s that?”