I just want to voice my opinion that I greatly dislike this upcoming change and am asking the devs to reconsider this. Also, please make pwave apply flame shock for resto shaman again.
Thank you
10 Likes
I donāt get the point of turning it into Fire Nova 2.0. Just delete it at this point and replace it was something else.
10 Likes
Iāve been going back and forth on this but honestly I think the change is fine, potentially even better. I really liked shooting out a ton of lava bursts though, and I also did like the prep to get prim wave min maxed, but I think this ends up being fine.
Essentially it will just be an on use cleave ability that also grants haste based on targets hit if talented. I assume it still grants lava surge for ele and still applies a flame shock. I think itāll be visually cool to shoot out a bunch of Primordial waves though since they look awesome.
Maybe they should allow liquid magma totem to apply at least 1 more flame shock to make up for the fact that the flame shock from prim wave canāt really be used as an extra one like it could before since there is no next step after pressing prim wave.
It also sounds very cool for enhancement with Primordial Storm being a new talent for it. That sounds pretty sweet, wouldāve loved to see a version of that for Ele too.
P wave now needs to be effected by mastery too.
4 Likes
Agree with this 100%, it should overload now. They could make that a baseline part of Prim wave, or add it to the Splintered Elements talent kind of how Earth shock/ele blast/EQ has a separate talent to make it overload, either way works.
1 Like
Iām probably knee-jerking here at the moment, but
I think the changes on paper strike me as terrible. Overloads finally are brought back up to snuff and theyāre reducing one of the means to assure and overloading burst.
Iām more convinced than ever: A) shaman dev lead is enhancement focused B) thereās a hard-on they are convinced that Flame Shock should be a mechanical focus. Saying something like, āItās difficult to optimize useā.
Looking at the imbalance between resource gains between getting half the maximum number of MW stacks but for Elemental thereās the prospect of none of the Maelstrom from the Lava Bursts.
Finally reached a point where we the players could reach the cap of AG Healing throughput and then the ability gets murdered by management feels like a timely political joke thatās needs more time to cook.
1 Like
I dont think that would be difficult to solve right? Just make primordial wave able to overload and increase its maelstrom gen, think that solves the issues you brought up.
It sounds like their goal is to make prim wave do exactly what it did before but without the extra step of getting dmg amps for your lava burst and pressing lava burst after, making it its own CD. Think that works out as long as it generates as much maelstrom as right now and also can overload.
Assuming the prim waves do basically the same dmg as the cleave LBs do now, it shouldnt effect burst but we need to see what that looks like first.
Primordial wave wasnāt broken, donāt fix it. Especially donāt āfixā it with a new broken primordial wave that already has 5 caveats for how it can be good, but isnāt right now, before its even out of the oven. Oh, just give it mastery scaling, oh just make it give maelstrom, it probably needs more damage too since the Datamine has it doing nothing.
Even if it is the same we lose one source of flame shock so we are down to ascendance, lmt, and natty flame shock. And even then, we are losing the ability to cleave with just primordial wave on council fights. Pointless nerf disguised as a change. Scrap the change and change something that is actually broken or unfun like echoes of the great sundering, or the straight up inferiority of fire elemental after storm ele became a power infusion, or even the part of icefury where frost shock is barely worth casting because it is like the only spell we have that canāt mastery. Or even just leave ele alone for a bit and work on one of the classes that desperately need it. Maybe change our tier set or fire elemental so the tier set is actually somewhat exciting.
7 Likes
There are so many thing that annoy me about this change. Setup in M+ to use Pwave, the fact the even in single target Flame Shock will be annoying to keep up just by natty Flameshocking, the fact that most of the time you open with Pwave to trigger Elemental Equilibrium before your big AoE bursts (Ascendance, Stromkeeper). Thereās so much that aggrevates me about this they went about this way instead of just making LMT spread to 5, or allowing the Pwave bolt apply Flame Shock to your target and 1 or 2 additional mobs.
Other thing I thought of is that I cannot wait for New Pwave causing Grandpas to cast Chain Lighting when using Pwave.
You put it in words better than I could. If your first reaction reading a change is āoh it will be ok if they do X number of thingsā and if that number exceeds 2, there is a huge issue.
Well one glimmer of hope is that according to info data mined from the PTR, the Tier set works with either Storm Ele or Fire Ele as itās listed both on there provided that is the case. Still a very underwhelming tier set. But that brings up another point with this change: Farseer is already playing all of the Elemental buffing Talents and literally has to drop Swelling to take Primal Elementalist as of now playing the cleave fights so IDK what you would drop in order to grab LMT for fight like Mythic Queen or Mythic Silken Court.
Before people come in here screeching ādeath to pwaveā, I 100% get it. I personally like Enhanceās version but not the biggest fan of Eleās version. But this isnāt the way to make it much smoother to use. If anything this has just added so many headaches.
2 Likes
Idk if I agree with that. I mean these are changes that just make it function how it does now but by itself instead of pressing Lava burst. Seems kind of pointless though imo, but I think having prim wave be a strong button by itself to press is an interesting idea. It would only require 2 changes I think:
-Increase Prim Wave maelstrom gen up from 3 to 8 (matches lava burst generation)
-Make Primordial Wave work with mastery so it can overload (matches current prim wave lava burst cleave generation)
Outside of these two changes, it just needs to keep the lava surge proc and ideally flame shock application that it currently has and its good to go imo. If those two changes donāt make it in, Ele will just be a lot less fun than right now and will have less generation.
Iāll be honest though, I dont think this change is necessary at all and Iād much rather just keep current Prim wave. Its fun, its thematic, Iām not really sure where the difficulty is in terms of setting prim wave up outside of getting Flame shocks out, but that same thing will apply to the new Prim wave since it requires getting flame shocks out lol.
I feel like they didnāt change the level of difficulty with Prim wave here at all. They just removed the step of pressing Lava burst right after, while also making the ability far less thematic and fun (cant overload since prim wave doesnt work with mastery, wonāt generate nearly as much maelstrom).
The worst thing about prim wave is having to spread flame shocks as Ele, and thats the one thing about it they kept.
1 Like
Iāll be honest the only way I can see myself liking this is if it was made so prim wave functions more like ascension where you pop it hits up to 6 targets and drops a flame shock on them, rather than the fire nova that its apparently being set up to be. Iām all for new ideas if it can be good, but this particular one just seems to be replacing a good idea for a bad one.
Not sure if its intended but apparently the wowhead talent still has the lava burst proc so theres that, no bonus lava bursts of course but the proc still being there is nice.
2 Likes
- Primordial Wave has been redesigned ā Now deals a high amount of damage to all targets affected by your Flame Shock.
- Developersā notes: Primordial Wave is a complicated spell to manage and get optimal use out of. Weāre adjusting it to be more of a big damage impact upon activating the ability rather than priming your next Lava Burst to hit many targets.
I mean reading this, their intended goal was to make Prim Wave something you press that does big damage upon activation. They want to remove the complexity of setting up Lava burst to hit many targets.
The problem there is this change did not accomplish that at all. Like it did nothing to accomplish that. The most complex part of current Prim Wave is getting out Flame Shocks to maximize Lava burst cleave from that Prim Wave. With the new change, we would be wanting to get out the same amount of Flame Shocks to maximize Primordial Wave cleave.
This change just does not reflect what the developer notes say. Pressing Lava burst after you hit Primordial Wave was not the difficult part, what you had to do before pressing Lava Burst was the difficult part and that still exists in the exact same way.
The only difference from this change is now we wonāt have the cool effect of Lava bursts overloading everywhere, and we wonāt have nearly as much Maelstrom generation during this 30 sec burst. The complexity is unchanged.
8 Likes
For enhance it seems fine, for ele I donāt like it.
I think theres mostly one way I would be okay with Prim Wave changing for Ele:
-Make Prim Wave work with mastery so it overloads. Thematic, looks cool, makes it more fun to press, etc
-Make Prim Wave spread flame shocks instead of requiring flame shocks to spread. Target cap prim wave cleave to 5(?) targets, and have it apply flame shocks to those 5 targets
-Make it still work with Lava burst, so after pressing Prim wave, your next Lava burst will cleave onto your flame shocked targets
What this would do is make it so Prim Wave does decent damage by itself when you activate it by cleaving, overloading and spreading flame shock, and then gives you more cleave following that by pressing Lava burst for cleave.
However, this also makes Prim Wave management easier because it would be applying 5 flame shocks, so with liquid magma totem and our own single applications, we can get a lot of lava burst cleave in an easier less complicated way. This could even make it so Liquid magma totem isnāt required for prim wave anymore as well.
This also puts even more emphasis on overloading, which is by far the best and most fun part of elemental shaman. Press Prim wave that overloads and cleaves onto 5 targets+applies flame shocks to them>press Lava burst that cleaves onto your flame shocked targets. It would be a lot more forgiving and less complex, but more fun imo.
The malusā Iām reading from the paper design; and my reaction
- Resource Issues - 5 Maelstrom vs Lava Burst scaled by targets; Bad
- Flame Shock Applicators - Down; Bad
- Immediacy - Lava Surge Gone; Bad
- Synergy - Mastery Interplay Gone; Bad
The design note doesnāt make sense when applied to Elemental. The change would reduce the number of flameshocks youāre able to send during the same amount of time and mean youāre no longer interacting with your specialization mastery.
The ability for Elemental asks you to play better and try to adjust to the moment, but doesnāt demand optimal play every single time. The optimization issue gets way better with play and itās miss rate equivalent to missing to missing one target or one stack of haste. Itās like kneecapping the maximum number of applications and saying thatās the new optimal play?
Weāre supposed to be throwing out pasta and meatballs here! Gutting it to the bone so that Flames Shocks instead of Lava Bursts are the focus for a class where the fantasy are multiple big juicy hits is antithetical to the theme.
Iād say just give Enhancement Chain Harvest instead of Primordial Wave, and just leave Primordial Wave alone.
2 Likes
Yeah Iāve said a lot since that post, I have a post going in the 11.1 section if you want to read that or what I said a few posts up from here.
I donāt like the change at all, it doesnāt line up with their stated goals for Prim wave, for Elemental specifically . The complexity is the exact same because they didnāt actually change anything about the way you ārampā Prim wave. They basically just made Prim Wave cleave instead of Lava Burst, but the way you do that is the same, possibly even worse now. We lose maelstrom gen, awesome overloads going everywhere, and yet the complexity remains unchanged.
This is what Iād want to see them do for Prim Wave:
-Make Prim Wave cleave on up to 5 targets and apply Flame Shock to the 5 it hits
-Make Prim Wave work with mastery so it overloads. Thematic, looks cool, makes it more fun to press, generates a little more maelstrom, etc
-Keep the Lava Burst cleave from current Prim Wave. With the above 2 changes, priming for this becomes less complex and more fun
The above achieves the goal of lowering the amount of complexity with priming Lava Burst by giving you more flame shocks from Prim Wave. The complexity is all tied to getting flame shocks out. In a pack of 7 mobs this would lower the amount of āprimingā by a lot. It also makes Prim Wave feel like a good button on its own by overloading, generating more maelstrom, cleaving 5 targets and applying 5 flame shocks.
Those changes would also allow them to either remove Liquid Magma Totem or just leave it and we use it as a flex point, take it when we need it and swap out when we donāt. Right now itās required with prim wave.
1 Like
Was on the fence between playing Ele or Resto for S2 but seems much easier now.
Per the detailed tooltip Pwave is retaining the lava surge proc just not the cleave. Iāve seen others state the surge proc is gone and its not.
Yea, for enhance this change is kinda whatever.
But for elemental itās bad, like really bad.
Ivāe already said my piece on what i want to see for ele and enhance on other posts so i wonāt repeat the same thing here too.
1 Like
where is this detailed tooltip? because on the only official notes ive seen it says primordial wave only does a āhighā amount of damage to targets afflicted with flame shock and nothing else.
that still is a bad change regardless due to no flame shock application and less maelstrom generation. also, just makes ZERO sense. if its still gonna give us surgeā¦ WEāRE GONNA PRESS LAVA RIGHT AFTER ANYWAYS LOL, itās just a straight up nerf and they are lying imho, that has to be what it is