Couple reasons
Because I still get Scintillating Moonlight for the 10% DR
Moonfire is usually second highest damage for me behind Raze
Touching on the damage, Moonfire cleave for extra damage in fewer globals
And touching on Moonfire cleave, gets that’s 10% DR covered more often on trash packs as wel
Right now on live I use Twin Moons as well. I can usually get 4-6 mobs covered with Moonfire on the pull. So that with 10% damage reduction will be nice, plus the extra damage is also nice
We’ll have to do another run.
I wanna see that in action.
My experience has been different with UFR builds. I skip moonfire talents entirely and seldom press it at all except for single target.
I’m looking forward to testing this out. Should be pretty beefy.
Yeah I use twin moonfire with UFR now as well. the DR + the damage is nice.
Since i mostly pug, I give up incarn for now because its hard to get the most use out of it with a pug. Can’t wait to have Twin + Scint + UFR + Incarn + DoC + Thorns. So far its pretty nice on PTR.
I haven’t been able to test with the new set yet, but I think rage gen talents can be bypassed once the 2 set is acquired and put more into the arcane damage booster.
I’m not sure about that. You can never have too much rage. More rage = faster incarn cycle. You’ll get more out of doing 5 less pulls in a dungeon than you would gain out of adding extra Moonfire damage.
My only gripe about the new tree is they’ve moved the problem from the bottom tier to the middle tier. ToI is a must take, and so is TnC, so then you don’t really have a lot of options unless they tune up the other choices.
I don’t play incarn now anyways. That will change with the new tree if they stay similar to what they are. Live I said, I pug too much to make good use of Incarn and I’m not a huge fan of that play style personally to give up the other options I use.
But incarn CDR is nice.
Raze should replace maul. It just shouldn’t be a single target loss. I don’t like/want button bloat for the sake of button bloat.
Otherwise, good direction on the changes.
Isnt there better options than Ursocs Guidance though, especially with the revamp of the spec tree?
Why? Genuine question here. Sure the passice damage for pressing abilities youre using anyway is nice, but that rage is better off spent on Raze/Maul instead of spamming Iron Fur
How do you not?! Lol i know theres viable builds that go without it but it is a life saver and god mode button!
I will with the rework because I can get most of the other goodies I prefer. My issue is since I mostly pug, trying to make the most use of that 30s window can be lost, so I just settle for berzerk for 15s and be a demigod instead. 
I like the ‘hybrid’ build that still uses GG, Twin and Scint to get to RoTS, and then get Raze and Ursoc. It seems more pug healer friendly and still gets good numbers overall.
It’s more damage, especially single target damage, which is a huge time saver in keys. And bears are so weak defensively right now that you’d rarely toss a maul/raze without a TnC proc unless you’re in a rage overflow situation, and in that case 0.5s OGCD ironfur wins out again.
No shot. The “niche” for bear is being able to do large pulls infrequently with incarn. You’re basically unkillable with well over 1M HP and constant ticking regen. If you play it right, you can get incarn to 90s or so, which is why ToI is so good. It all feeds off itself, more rage from bigger pulls means IF every .5s for the entire thing, more rage spend is faster incarn for bigger faster pulls. The GCD isn’t fast enough to spend rage on Raze while weaving in Mangle and Thrash, but IF is OGCD.
Mangle Raze Mangle Raze Mangle Raze Mange Raze
While keeping 2-3 IF stacks
Just ran a quick test, 2 sessions of Incarn. One with Iron Fur being the only spender (and using TnC procs), and the other using Maul as a spender while maintaining 2-3 stacks of IF
IF session: about 25 casts of IF and a couple TnC procs. ToI damage: 350k. Maul damage 115k
Maul session: about 14 casts of Maul: 450k damage. 110k damage from ToI.
Maul is showing about 20% higher dps. Granted, this was a UFR shield build so I didn’t have GG popping off extra rage. But I also have the added benefit that even with 2-3 stacks of IF going, I also received a 375k absorb shield.
In an AoE scenario, ToI > Maul. BUT! ToI < Raze. Especially with Vicious Cycle increasing Raze by 45% damage every time.
Granted I haven’t played with Ursocs Guidance yet (i may mess with it yet), but this does sound fun. But outside of only 3 dungeons (Nelth, Uldaman, Brackenhide), how often are we able to make those big pulls. Other dungeons have stupid gaps in them
This is where it’s at. I’m running 2piece with bristling fur and can nearly reset incarn every 2 pulls.
Big yikes!!
If you’re still using thrash during incarn……you’re doing it wrong.
There are only two reasons to ever press thrash during incarn with a UFR build.
Other than that, You should be alternating between mangle and raze. Each single cast buffs the other x3 from vicious cycle.
You generate larger shields.
You deal more damage.
I don’t run UFR/raze because it’s such a damage loss, and damage is the only thing Druids have going for them. You alternate thrash and Mangle and press IF every 0.5s. You also dot use TnC procs during incarn, because, again, damage loss.
There’s your problem. UFR is a trap.
Well that’s what people are discussing here…. So….Ya know… there’s that.
Hey… maybe you can tell us about your rotation for balance too!
Cause that’s relevant…
/s
In S1. This is now S2.
See teir set for details.
So there’s a problem with this. In any AoE scenario (88% of a dungeon run), Raze > ToI because of Vicious Cycle. Raze’s damage increases per mob. ToI’s damage is capped and spread between all mobs.
Raze hits 5 targets and it’s damage goes through the roof because it just hit each mob for 20k. ToI hits 5 targets and it does 1k per target, then on the next press it does 3k per target, while raze is still doing 20k per target.
Not to mention, Raze is also getting the benefit of ToI damage as well. Perhaps in ST scenario’s ToI is more beneficial, but like I said, 88% of the dungeon Raze is where it’s at. And the “you can’t spend rage fast enough” argument doesn’t really work because…well…IF is off the GCD, so if I’m getting anywhere near capping on Rage (doesn’t happen), I can gain another stack of IF (during Incarn I’m sitting on about 3-4 stacks and gaining shields left and right).
Edit:
You claim this, but basing numbers off of warcraft logs, you’re averaging about the same overall DPS that I am running the UFR/Raze build. And that’s with me pugging and not running with guild/friends where I can do bigger pulls more regularly (good god I don’t think DPS understand how Bolstering works and how big of a pain it is when they buff a trash mob to be worse off than a freaking boss).
At least the HP buff from bolster is gone.
Remember back in bfa when you essentially had to wipe or reset if you bolstered a mob too much? I mean…. Sure. You could kite the damage and survive, but it took 4 minuts to kill it!
Good times!!
Don’t take my word for it.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/34#metric=dps&class=Druid&spec=Guardian