yeah lets put everyone back in the walls of org, such immersive gameplay
or release a sever that is exactly what people asked for and allow free transfers to it
a bubble with no changes
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I wouldn’t say those are equals. If you want to dig further into this we can; however, I think this line of conversation is moving a little aways from what I had hoped for this thread.
Instead of accepting that each of us have different goals for Era and looking for ways where can can consider a change that supports our goals without detracting from the other, it feels as though we are falling into a trap of trying to convince others that their goals are bad and that they should adopt our goals. Do you know what I mean here?
I feel like there are solutions to this problem that don’t take away from either side, but we would need to just accept each other at our words before we can move forward.
Anyway, if you wanna discuss whether or not Era/Vanilla does, indeed, have asymmetrical faction balance, we can 
You can still get it outside org. There’s plenty of places you just have to get creative.
i would love that, so when did the horde have something removed as major as a race/class combo?
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I wasnt playing during p2 of SoD and the hear-say I got was that it was a bug that got patched?
But, clearly that’s not the case, so oops. I thought those changes were ‘resolved’ ><
yeah WCB is diffrent on era now after sod phase 2. that is the current iteration of WCB we have on era right now.
Right, hence my response. Factions still arent balanced btw. What they meant was population fyi.
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The issue is that the game is not built around parsing, or not parsing. The games incredibly unbalanced around that form of gameplay. So you should suspend the implication of this on parsing communities completely. And even then ignoring that community this change was just a net positive for encouraging leveling and that sort of emergent community focused gameplay that people associate with the “no changes” vanilla.
Alot of the backlash for these changes felt so over the top youd think blizzard just added the wow token in classic era.
I have a feeling a lot of pro-MoS people would also be pro-token.
MoS makes it easier for one to parse at the cost of the authenticity of vanilla.
Token also makes it easier for one to parse at the cost of the authenticity of vanilla.
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What if a compromise to this entire debate was to allow all world buffs (except DMT obviously) be repeatable quest turn ins with a very short cooldown? Now, the worry about the scarcity of the buffs wouldn’t be an issue since there will always be active/dedicated players that are running the content to push the world buffs out on a scheduled basis without having to rely on alts or newer players.
Rend would still be inconvenient for Alliance; however, much more manageable because of multiple drops throughout the day.
This would also accommodate unscheduled drops for players that are wanting their first quest turn in reward without fear of toxic remarks from other players.
I think if they are going to make world buffs easier to get, they may as well just go SoM and have buffs get purged when you enter raids.
Turning buffs into a chore is the worst thing possible. Either pumpers work hard to get them and are rewarded, or they are taken out all together.
Middle ground solutions probably lead to a bad experience for all, imo.
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If we are going to make changes(but lets not), make changes that shake things up. 10/10/10 marks (PVP set), OR 1 arcanite bar/1 mooncloth/1 cured rugged/ Lotus (Prof set) OR some set of 1 thing you collect from bosses BRD/DM/UBRS/Strat/Scholo (Dungeon set). Turn in any set in for a personal WCB/MoS.
This is more of a SoD or SoM type idea.
i actually really like the idea of dungeon bosses dropping something you have to continue to get to raid each week.
but then again i love dungeons
edit: that being said i don’t think it’d work for Era, which puts a big emphasis on the community aspect
Let’s dive in! Please just keep in mind that this is a side convo I guess, haha. Also, while I’m interested in a discussion on this, I’m definitely not interseted in a heated one. Let’s both do our best to be chill
My intent wasn’t to say that Horde had something removed as a major race/class combo, it was to say that the balance between factions is not equal. To support this I pointed out that Horde have Shaman and Alliance have Paladins. As I understand it, your response to this was to say that this means there is balance. Hopefully I have that straight!
What I did intend to convey was that Horde and Shaman aren’t balanced, and this changes the nature of each faction. The easiest example to look at here is Windfury and Tranquil Air/Blessing of Salvation and the impact those have on their respective factions.
While Horde do have Tranqil Air Totem that acts in a similar fashion to Blessing of Salvation, it is 10% less threat reduction, is a limited range, and only acts on the group for two minutes instead of the entire raid for 15 minutes. By contrast, Horde do have Windfury and Alliance don’t really have an alternative, do they? If they do it’s slipping my mind lol. I know they have buff totems, but we also have kings.
All this to say, it feels like Horde have higher damage potential than Alliance do, but Alliance have an easier time managing threat. I have this feeling that Horde might actually be able to parse higher than Alliance, but it takes more skill to do so and this is why everybody plays Alliance these days. Salvation just makes it easier and we’re all a bunch of lazy zugs who just wanna press our buttons and not think about it 
(I’m an Alliance main, this is said jokingly!) Oh, and something to add about kings… Horde don’t have the entire equivalent of that. They can buff strength and agi but not stam, spirit, and intel like kings can.
Anyway, the result here is that each faction has different pros and cons. Things they can do that the other faction can’t. Sometimes there’s a direct counter part, sometimes there isn’t. The factions aren’t balanced, Horde do some things that Alliance can’t and vice versa, and what faction you align with maybe depends on what you value. The Warchief’s Blessing buff feels right in line with all of the above. Alliance doesn’t need an equivalent any more than they need an equivalent of Windfury.
If there were equivalents, the game would definitely be more balanced and from a general game design point of view, that’s not a bad thing. It’s just a bad thing for a game that’s supposed to be faithful to Vanilla. If we change them, is it still Vanilla? Like, it’s laughable that Warriors do 2-3 times more damage than most other classes and in any other game, I would strongly advocate for that to change… but this isn’t any other game and so i fyou wanna do the most DPS, you roll a warrior
I think that’s one way to go. Another way to think about it is that world buffs are kind of like easy mode. Struggling to down a boss? Use world buffs to give a little extra oomph to down it. Wanna flex on the baddies with how great you are? Kill the bosses without world buffs.
This is actually a more organic and interesting, to me, design than just toggling hard modes on/off.
It just unfortunately works against human nature in that people what those phat purpz from the raid and so therefore want to maximize their loot to time invested ratio.
Alliance has a not as good equivalent in that they can use sharpening stones or poison on their MH. Which is more to your point that they do not need direct equivalents, being different is what makes classic.
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that is correct
this is the main balancing thing between the two faction in classic… shaman and paladins, alliance has defensive tools where as horde have offensive tools. The same thing is shown with the priest racials. And while i understand and respect that my main issue is why should a buff be faction specific if the opposing faction has already lost something in the name of faction balance?
except we have seen where they will change the game to fit the playerbases behavior and fix timesinks. so why is this where the line is being drawn?
- pvp ranking overhaul
- no raid party pvp ques
- chronoboons
- etc. etc.
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I think those things were met with dissent. And now we are seeing more slippage from SoD into Era. Line was being drawn on all of those issues, they just crossed it and people went eh what are we going to do i guess. How it happened this time both the initial and the revert are why there is a frenzy.
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As Zeep said, almsot all the poeople complaining about MoS complained just as about those previous changes.
I even made a thread and quit posting on my main (and still rarely do so) in protest of the removal of pvp decay.
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One could easily ask the same question… why not? I think a really appropriate time to argue this would have been back in 2004 to 2006 when it would have been appropriate to make a change. Maybe even 2019 when Classic first released. But now? It feels like that’s just the game now… it is what it is and we embrace it because if we do start talking about adding/changing things to make it fair, we’re changing the game to something else.
I’ve said this many times but maybe not to you. I’m interested in that game. Classic+ very much intrigues me! Not SoD, Classic+ haha, something very close to Vanilla but with those minor balance and QoL tweaks Blizzard could have made in 2004 to 2006 but didn’t. However, that should be a different thing than Era because today, in 2024, people are paying specifically for that one thing and not another.
I’m not, nor have I ever been #nochanges. I do support changes when they are absolutely necessary or when they address a specific and detrimental problem to the community.
The ranking overhaul was in direct response to some pretty toxic behaviour the community was undertaking, especially the whole pool party thing where people would make low level alts to deliberately game the system. While this new system directly benefits me, it feels like it took away from some of the community aspects of PvP in the organization of ranking and maybe that’s not so good. A change was needed here but maybe not this one?
Was there ever raid party PvP queues? I remember the Alliance AV premades in 2019 but I thought it was all around synchronizing 5-man group queues to stack the deck in your favour. I don’t remember being able to raid queue AV in Vanilla. Though you could do a full premade of 10/15 in WSG/AB… can you not do that anymore? If not, I think that’s maybe not a great change. Again, PvP has always had that community element and this takes away from it, though if they were going to make a change here, premade v premade matching might have been more appropriate?
Chronoboon is actually probably about the best change I feel like they could have made here. There was a definite problem at the time with people not logging in so they could preserve their world buffs. When they introduced the Chronoboon, overnight people started playing again. I remember it vividly! I also feel that the way they implemented it felt very Classic… maybe the only way they could have made it better was if they had Engineers craft them The only real downside of the change is that if you were someone who liked griefing others by purging their world buffs through… creative… means, then you lost a part of the game you might have enjoyed. While I feel for you and will purposefully not judge here, I think that’s pretty niche and is acceptable collateral damage. To me at least. Even then, I would be open to an iteration on the boon that was a better compromise, as long as it solved the core issue of people just not logging in.
Sometimes changes are just going to be necessary, especially as the players find new and creative ways to play. It feels like sometimes we don’t always think about what’s best for us as a community and let ourselves fall into behaviours that are not so great for us. It’s just important that the changes that to need to happen try to respect this version of the game.
Becuase of this I’m actually in favour of some kind of change surrounding Warchief’s Blessing. I just don’t think that Might of Stormwind was the right change.