Honestly, I only take issue with the few MSV hunters being so obtuse to the point it doesn’t contribute to the conversation in any way shape or form. The ones being reasonable, and wanting to find a solution, I have respect for you for listening and trying to understand where the RSV crowd is coming from.
Only way I could realistically see MM having RSV baked into it is if when you selected certain talents, they would replace the MM spells completely, but they would also have to activate a whole new set of passives. Which honestly is probably going to be more effort and harder to balance then just bringing RSV back as a 4th spec.
Sorry for mentioning this again but…yeah, you asked Nellezhar.
Here it is(if you want the TL;DR related only to your quote here, skip to the last quote below, not the last one in the entire post, but in this reply to you):
In short, the devs wanted an easy way of upping the diversity between hunter specs. They came up with the idea of a melee spec early on in the process and from that moment, they no longer cared about RSV and what it could’ve been like in the modern game(post-Legion).
Here’s the response from the interview:
https://www.gameaxis.com/interviews/interview-wow-legions-lead-class-designer-senior-producer/
Q: You guys also oversee all the other classes. Are there any particular changes that you’re most excited about?
… Travis: And then Survival Hunter…
It was another one that was missing its niche. It’s kind of like Marksman except more traps? Or different arrows? So it was kind of missing that “what is the core fantasy?”
I mean, for a dev/producer to come out and say this…
It’s like they hadn’t actually even looked at the designs and what they were about.
It was enough to look at the respective abilities/effects/interactions for each spec and you would notice that they were not the same, or even similar.
I mean sure, both specs relied on a ranged weapon, but that was about it. Look into their respective designs and it would’ve become more clear.
Kind of like Marksman, except more traps? MM did not focus on traps at all.
That was a niche tied to SV in the past.
Different arrows? Yeah, different abilities, different mechanics/interactions.
1 spec being about hardcasting big-hitters for a lot of burst potential(MM) while the other was utilizing DoT-abilities for a playstyle focusing on consistency(RSV).
So it was kind of missing that - what is it’s core fantasy? The core fantasy was about enhancing ammunition and traps. Something that MM did not focus on. Not that hard to figure out…
Travis: Having it move into the melee space and actually return to its roots that was the vanilla Survival experience.
Playing as a hunter in Vanilla with SV talents chosen, did not make you a melee hunter. It did not take away your baseline toolkit, consisting of essentially only ranged abilities.
The only reason we even had/made use of melee weapons back then was due to the design of ranged weapons having a min. attack-range.
Travis: It’s like it finally gave them a unique identity. If this is the beast companion guy that you’ve always wanted to play then you’re going to have that role.
Yeah, SV now in BfA is really unique…it’s BM but with a focus on melee combat. And yes, Legion SV was better than the BfA version in that regard.
But it’s not like RSV was the same as MM or BM back in WoD. The core specializations back then were different/unique. They catered to different aspects of the class, both in theme and in mechanics.
(BM: pets, MM: sharpshooter, RSV: munitions expert and trapper)
And then, the final quote from that interview… IMO, the most revealing one, in terms of showing their lack of understanding towards what players think:
Travis: You get more flavor both visually and also as a player. That feeling of “What is that experience that I wanted?” and it delivers a little bit more for every class now.
(This one Nellezhar)
Well, that was a failure, to say the least…
For those of us who like ranged combat(using ranged weapons), turning one spec into a melee spec did not add flavor.
“What is that experience that I wanted?” Yeah, that experience was RSV and the focus on DoTs and Traps. But good on you devs for taking that experience away from us.
So no, it does not “deliver a bit more of that” now…
It’s kind of funny actually, and sad, as Ion in his interview(linked earlier in this topic) talked about how they “knew going into Legion that they were creating a niche spec not really intended for current hunters”. But then we also have the answers above here where he(Travis) says “hunters/current players now have more options and flavor”.
If they could only make up their minds…
They said that yes.
Keep in mind though that they also said that the new focus on class fantasy wouldn’t necessarily mean that current core specializations would be massively changed/overhauled as a result.
They said that a big focus for classes going into Shadowlands was going to be about adding in elements that were not directly tied to specific specializations. Example: Abilities that are meant for the class as a whole. Not just one spec(Hunter’s Mark, Kill Shot, Eyes of the Beast).
Correct.
Perfect balance in a game such as WoW, is a myth. At least if you want abilities and designs to remain somewhat flavorful and unique.
Fair enough, most likely there would be some issues yes. But isn’t that basically the norm for most new additions/changes towards classes or other similar systems?
Have we ever gotten something new on this front that has been perfect from the start? Especially in terms of tuning/balancing?
Take Mists of Pandaria as an example. In this expansion, they revamped the entire talent-system for all classes.
They added an entirely new class with multiple specs(Monk).
And, they also split the Druid spec(Feral) into two separate specs(Feral/Guardian).
They did all that, and MUCH more going into MoP, and a lot of things were messy at first. But that did not stop them from doing this at the time. Why should it be such a deciding factor now?
Would agree with this. Sort of.
But considering how they decided to remove 1 of 3 ranged weapon specs/playstyles in favor of adding in a 13th melee weapon-option…where’s the balance in that?
I would agree with this. Fine if someone has opinion regarding general systems such as changes to the entire talent system.
But for someone to argue about changes tied to a specific class, which they aren’t playing or have barely ever touched before…
Ofc changes can be made to classes over time. Ofc things can be added. But you should not completely redefine what the basic core features of a class are.
You can add/make outliers that stray from the core model a bit. But when has it gone to far? When is it no longer about adding/making outliers but instead about changing the norm?
If they wanted to ADD to the original definition of the hunter class, by adding a melee-focused spec. Fine. But what they shouldn’t do, is replacing parts of that core with new outliers. Which is what they did going into Legion.
Yes.
Either that or suggesting that they “should just implement some old RSV abilities into MM and/or BM”.
What happened to “don’t advocate for specs to be changed/removed” ?
Who said anything about “running” Blizzard?
They make the game for the players to buy and play.
If they want that to continue, they would do well to listen to feedback provided to them.
We had 3 ranged specs before. One was changed to a melee spec.
Why would adding in another spec break everything?
Is 3 some magic number that, if you surpass it, the entire class breaks?
Since when is the argument about: adding RSV as a 4th spec about “adding things just for the sake of doing so” ?
Yeah I saw that.
I can guarantee you though that such a massive change to the talent-system as a whole would break a lot more than adding a 4th spec to a class would do, initially, and somewhat later on as well ofc.
Also, it’s not actually about the number of things they add as much as it’s about what they add/change along with how they deal with the follow-ups as the new expansion continues. It’s this which determines how it’s received in the eyes of the players.
Like I said further up, in MoP, they added an entirely new class incl 3 new specs, they added an entirely new spec(split one into two) for the Druid class, they revamped the entire talent-system for all classes, and much more.
They did not get it all perfect from the start. Far from it…
And still, if you look at forum discussions, one of the more/most common types of feedback in terms of class design, is that players want MoP class design back.
It would be the same thing if they were to add in a 4th hunter spec, or more for other classes as well for that matter. It won’t be perfect from the start. But it’s how they deal with the issues that occur, which determines how players take it all in. In the long run.
I would agree with this.
You(anyone) don’t?
Try this:
Will they get everything to be perfect from the start? No, ofc not. But they never have in the past so, why is this a requirement now?
The thing is, you’re basically arguing that you went up against opponents that did not know how to properly counter your actions and that somehow justifies arguing that your way of playing was the intended one, by design?
I would argue, like I did earlier, that they only said those things as an excuse to justify changing a spec from ranged to melee.
As, again, it was enough to just look at both specs/design concepts to figure out how they were different/unique.
Were they different enough by today’s standards?
No, ofc not.
Were they different enough by the standards set back then?
Yes.
Could MM and RSV be different/unique enough by today’s standards?
You tell me(check my linked suggested concept further up in this reply).
My point is, they did not bother looking into how to make RSV more diverse/unique when compared to other specs, as they had already decided to make it a melee spec.
Compare it to current BM. It literally has several former BM specific abilities/effects in it.
Does this mean that the spec in itself isn’t unique when compared to some other melee specs(or other specs that you have played)? No, it doesn’t.
But this is not the argument.
I’m just saying that cutting it off that way is hurting you, because you’re actually giving credibility to people who boosted just to spread hunter hate.
The only way not to give them that instacred is to do it my way and treat everyone’s opinion as equal.
Granted, I love melee SV. I love the way it plays, I love the idea behind it, I love that the spec synergizes with your pet better than BM does, I like behind able to use a melee weapon again without having to level another class. It had a few WTF abilities, but overall, I enjoy melee SV in BFA and want to see what direction Shadowlands will take it.
That being said, my desire to see RSV return is less about that particular spec (because honestly, my gameplay experience didn’t change much when it was around) and more about my disappointment that Blizzard still can’t do anything with MM despite having 15 years of two specs to use as a base.
This could be said for priests as well. Holy priest gained many discipline abilities in BFA. Such is a casualty of BFA’s terrible design, not something specific to hunters.
And the interactions of those abilities in survival have received major changes. Serpent sting and WF infusions for example have a unique and fun interaction. Survival has a lot of that thanks to WF infusions.
Does this somehow justify the changes towards SV/RSV/MSV?
You mean the one where Wildfire Bomb explodes one more time if your target is suffering from Serpent Sting?
That isn’t something particularly unique in this game.
Fun? Perhaps, though this is more a case of subjectivity. I for example wouldn’t call a passive bonus damage proc which occurs whenever you use an ability like you usually do anyway, I would not call that particularly fun either.
I mean, it’s okay ofc. But it isn’t something special, if you ask me.
Having said that…
The Wildfire Infusion-talent in itself(as a whole) I would say is one of the better/more imaginative talent-designs we’ve seen for some time. At least compared to many other talents, it allows for changes in gameplay, without actually simply adding in a talent that adds a new ability on it’s own(something that isn’t always for the better, case-and-point = BM talents).
o.O No, I mean the one where it explodes, causes extra dmg due to serpent sting’s application, and refreshes the dot. Further, it’s random when it’ll pop up in the rotation, and thus requires on the fly thinking, making it different than most rotations, because every variant of bomb is different with different priorities. In the case of arena, as I most use it, this very drastically changes the game depending on which bomb I get, focus levels, mongoose bite windows, etc.
And keep in mind, I said this:
Serpent Sting and the bomb associated with it is just one of the interactions I was mentioning (hence ‘for example’). I was vague because I’m not gonna type out several bricks about how current survival in the arena scene is fun for me. It’s not on topic enough.
You’re focusing just on the interaction. I’m focusing on what the interaction allows me to do. That’s what makes it so good, and why it’s so important.
Refreshing SS on its own and doing the extra dmg that it does? The important part is the refreshing of the dot’s duration because it allows for so many other things to take place. If I am at 4x MB, I wanna get to that fifth stack. WF infusions because of what it does allows those moments of 5x MB with LD and CA to be much more frequent because the amount of globals it frees up is amazing.
The entire kit of survival having WF infusions and it doing what it does makes it unique. That’s what’s fun about it. Survival as it is now (just like it was back when it was ranged) is one of the most unique melees in the game.
Here’s some trivia for you - did you know that only two of your abilities actually require melee range? Further, did you know you’re the only dps in the game where if you’re disarmed, you cannot interrupt? All these little things make it so interesting.
I acknowledged how the talent as a whole, design-wise is one of the better ones.
Due to how it changes your gameplay depending on procs you get. It allows for decision making and a change of pace without simply being a talent that provides you with a new ability.
This however, was not something which you brought up in your original post(as of this particular discussion).
All you said was:
And fair enough. It’s your opinion, no arguing that. And also fair enough, you apparently are talking about specific abilities/talents.
That however does not make the entire spec. That talent alone does not take away the fact that several of past/current core abilities/effects were taken(and renamed) from the BM spec.
My argument here was that the Legion iteration of MSV had more unique elements to it, compared to other hunter specs(and compared to current MSV).
IMO they could at least have added in Flanking Strike instead of Kill Command(even with somewhat similar design to that of KC for MSV), given MSV a Mastery bonus which wasn’t just a BM passive talent/effect, along with a giving it something more interesting than a renamed Bestial Wrath as a major CD.
So basically, your argument is that MSV is so good because so much of it involves ranged abilities??
Anyway: Raptor Strike, Carve, Flanking Strike, Mongoose Bite, Butchery. Seems like more than two abilities(granted 3 are talent options).
And…
As for the interrupt part, how would you say that a BM hunter or a MM hunter can interrupt if they get disarmed? Counter Shot(BM/MM) requires a ranged weapon to be used, for MM so does Bursting Shot(technically not an interrupt but, can be used for that purpose).
Am I missing some Honor talents here or, what are you getting at?
I was discussing hunter as a whole. Hunters cannot interrupt while disarmed. Note how I said you’re the only dps in the game. And no I meant just basic interrupt.
See, if your enemy dps is good, if he knows you’re going for a kill on healer but your healer is still capable of getting out of the red, he’ll disarm so the hunter cannot kick at all, which is a 6 second free window where the hunter cannot kick.
Again, the point I’m making is hunter (survival mainly) has a lot of nuance. It’s fun. That’s all I was saying. It’s why it feels unique and fun. Lots to do.
Look at all this arguing. An entire thread of argument.
Why?
Because Blizzard keep changing the rules, rather than keeping the rules static.
People fall in love with, or get used to the game at a particular point, and argue with those who want the original way back, the reverted way back, or some other change.
I’ve long been aghast at the toxicity of this place, but I’m believing this is Blizzard’s fault for constantly changing the rules.
Do Mahjong societies have this much argument?
Chess societies?
In games where the rules are constant, you just learn to live and adapt with the situation. I’ve used the example of instruments that have had consistent limitation over centuries in some cases, creating greater proficiency. Modern electronic instruments that are constantly changing how they work to add options and features, actually reduce potential proficiency.
None of these arguments would exist if Blizzard hadn’t messed with the talent tree etc. If they’d just made Xpacks WOW II and III and IV etc where you could import a character if you wanted, and continue on - such as so many other games like Baldur’s Gate etc had done in the past.
If you’re going to redesign your product, don’t take away the product people love!
Maybe Blizzard did this to keep subscribers. Funnel people into needing to buy each Xpack. But it’s driven away subscribers, as features they loved were removed, and time and effort they put in, were made redundant.
Most of your post was about MSV so I thought you were still talking about it there. That spec in particular I mean.
But yeah…
I would agree on this for the class as a whole. It is quite unique, especially in terms of theme/aesthetics.
Though I cannot agree on the “survival mainly” part. As, the other two specs(BM + MM) are the only specs in the game that rely on ranged weapons. (For mechanics and aesthetics/visuals)
This ofc all depends on how you choose to look at comparing specializations between classes. Example: do you put most weight behind the comparison of aesthetics/visuals or is it about hard mechanics/design of abilities? Etc.
But yeah, I agree on that statement towards the class as a whole. I just wish they could add in RSV(a modern version) as a 4th spec, to rectify past mistakes. Note that this new/updated RSV version would not infringe on core themes tied to the other existing hunter specs and what they are about. Neither in terms of aesthetics or mechanics.
Would agree with much of this.
They did re-create Vanilla/Classic (the old style) for those who want that.
Which is also one reason for why I remain hopeful that they will finally listen to the most common type of feedback provided in regards to the hunter class, for the last 3.5 years+. That being the return of RSV.
I liked ranged survival. MM was always about long casts into instant burst. While survival was about steady sustained pressure. They’re very different gameplay. I loved the old simple explosive shot and serpent sting on multishot, and shadow arrow dot to maintain pressure. It was an ideal ranged PvE spec for me.
No. At this moment survival is probably 1 of the best balanced classes in the game and 1 of the most fun to play. You want ranged then go mm or bm.
Survival is fine. Move on.
Want melee with a pet, go play Unholy DK. Oh, what’s that you say, it doesn’t play like an MSV hunter, well guess what, MM and BM don’t feel like RSV so not a good response. Most of what I have seen is people not wanting MSV deleted like RSV was, they just want RSV back as a 4th spec.
Again no. Hunters have 2 ranged specs and having a melee option with some ranged options in that spec is fun and plays to others play style. Again, Surv is fun, let it stay that way.
Again, most aren’t asking for MSV to be removed, they want RSV as a 4th spec. Which I don’t see a problem with. Telling them to go play BM or MM isn’t a solution for some, they either reroll or just flat out quit. Some people had been playing RSV for a long time, and when it was changed, it might have felt like their character was essentially deleted.