I enjoy survival quite a bit. I also enjoy bm. I don’t see why you need to revert survival though… You have the sniper theme and the pet/ranged theme. Survival fits a completely different mold based of rexxar.
What other ranged sniper themes do you need to fit outside of bm/mm?
We want the old Survival back as a fourth spec, you know, the ranged spec focusing on traps, exotic munitions and venom. The spec that was the most popular Hunter spec for over a decade.
We’ve said several times that Melee can stay, just give us ours back as well. Then everyone wins.
Ummmm… Pretty sure beast master has always been and always be the most popular spec. Just because people might not play it when it’s weak doesn’t mean the theme isn’t awesome.
Traps are a general hunter thing, not a survival thing. Hunters litteraly make traps. Honestly the old survival felt kinda like a lost spec, I like the current iteration way more. Of course bm/mm are better because they’re ranged but sv is still unique and cool. Way more so than before that’s for sure.
Would love to have ranged survival back, either as 4th spec or melee removed (no one plays it anyway) and made ranged again.
No, lol. Look at logs.
Ranged Survival was literally the most popular hunter spec, the most popular alt of choice and more people had a Survival hunter than any other class, counting ALL characters.
Ranged Survivals representation was always at the top, or among the top. Even when it wasn’t performing the best. The only time SV really fell in popularity was when Blizzard completely killed the spec during Hellfire Citadel in WoD, just like they did with Demonology.
You are also being obtuse. Survival was the spec that enhanced the traps. Was the best Hunter spec for CC and Kiting. It literally had the highest representation in PvP and PvE.
I’m glad you like the current iteration of being a discount warrior with a pet. I really am. No one is denying that a small minority enjoy Melee Survival. We just want OUR spec back. Which again, was insanely represented in all forms of content. Especially when you compare it to this niche Melee shenanigans that struggles to peak at 1% on good days.
Seriously, scroll up and look at the logs Bepples posted for when Survival was ranged. Then look at logs for current Survival. BM has always been a popular spec, but no where near what Ranged Survival was.
I also can’t take you seriously when you say
It’s not unique at all. It’s entire thematic is literally Melee Beast Mastery. It uses BM’s signature ability, Kill Command. With other abilities like Coordinated Assault, which is BM themed. And even has talents that buff things like…Kill Command. How any of you people can say Ranged Survival wasn’t unique then praise Melee Survival for being totally unique and the greatest thing since sliced bread, I’ll never know.
Again, none of us are asking for MSV to be removed, we just want our spec, the spec we played and loved for over a decade to come back.
Ridiculous statement. If you don’t remember all aspects of the old spec designs then fair enough, go read up on the actual differences, in terms of mechanical design, CD lengths, damage types, application varieties, and more.
If you’re basing that statement solely on the fact that both specs were relying on a ranged weapon, honestly just stop.
As have been pointed out already, that’s incorrect.
Fair enough if you think so. But you do know current MSV isn’t exactly containing any particularly unique abilities at all, do you? And I base that statement on your presumed logic(what you said just a sentence ago).
All ranged dps specs in the entire game can do so.
The difference being that those ranged specs would not lose out on damage if they stepped out of melee range. Something MSV would.
You acknowledged this yourself:
This should indicate to you that the design does not intend for you to actually step out of melee range. And yes, there are certain situations where it would be favorable to, as MSV, step away from an enemy to allow for ranged attacks and DoTs and the pet to continue. But this equals only “your method of playing”. It does not equal the “intended design”.
Again, fair enough, you’re free to play the game however you want. But don’t use your method of playing as an argument towards what a spec is designed for you to be doing.
We aren’t specifically after the WoD-style of survival. We are after the actual core theme of the old SV which existed from WotLK up until WoD.
Marksmanship is still a spec themed around properly aiming a ranged weapon. In taking your time to hit that perfect spot.
SV is no longer themed around enhancing ammunition used by ranged weapons, it’s no longer themed around a ranged weapon at all. Nor is it themed around the enhancement of traps, something the old SV also did.
What you equate with “run-and-gun” is the strict mechanical design of allowing you to move around without restrictions while executing all your attacks without hindrance.
What you fail to do, is comprehending how unique themes, aesthetics and ability-mechanics caters towards individual player preferences.
In short, it’s not just about us being able to move around all the time.
Again, “method of play” has nothing to do with “intent of design”.
Besides, if you think that the difference between old MM and old SV(WoD) was only about switching out 2 abilities and then pressing the new ones you added in the same way as you did with the old ones then no, you don’t know how to play the specs at high level. Or at least, not how they were supposed to be played back then.
Feel free to read through and get back to me with some feedback(US) 
:
#[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival
Original post(same as above, EU version):
How was it a mix of MM+BM?
In what way did it have “0 identity” when compared to BM/MM?
And the Affliction Warlock ability - Unstable Affliction, is just a renamed version of the Destruction Warlock ability - Immolate.
Different magic schools/damage types, ways of application, CDs, duration, and other mechanics, just like how you equated Chimera Shot with Explosive Shot.
But yeah, all of the above were/are exactly the same… 
Agree 100%.
In it’s own way, I can see why you would want that. Though, as a Hunter, who loved the old RSV, I can’t agree with you on this.
Keep in mind that a Hunter tank spec, would involve a pet. And a tank spec which includes pets would be a mechanical disaster, to say the least.
Novel huh…
What is a “novel” to you? An A4-page worth of text?
That is what they said yes.
Specifically, they said they knew that MSV “came with a flavour which was not necessarily intended for current hunters”. By current, I/they mean the hunters who were playing back then when they did change it.
Sniper themes?
Something which we aren’t advocating for here.
We want a spec with a main focus on enhancing the ammunition/arrows as well as traps. Not the sniper fantasy of focusing on the archery/sharpshooting. Nor are we after the BM fantasy of a pet commander who happens to be wielding a ranged weapon.
Exactly.
Incorrect, this has also been proven many times before in this very thread.
But here it is again.
Popularity/representation from MoP up until today:
PvE: https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/sv/pve-stats/classes/hunter
Bepples already linked some proof from before MoP.
This was sarcasm. I see it’s lost on you.
Source?
Logs show litteraly nothing about popularity 
they show what was strong which is why they would play it.
Omegalul… It still has all the trap enhancer, net and melee with an interesting pet. It’s very unique.
Lol everyone I know who plays hunter wants these two themes 
it’s a literal hunter with a companion or a long range sniper (which could have ammo modifications). The weird af survival we had before was not in the list lol.
The link when I open it shows me bm was the most popular
Regardless logs don’t show jack about theme/popularity. It shows what’s strong.
No no, I got that part.
But honestly, you complain about Bepples and how he formulates his posts.
And yet you do the exact thing. In context, sarcasm used only as a means to ridicule another poster?
https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/gamescom-2017-world-warcraft-legion-patch-7-3-interview/2
Interview with Ion.
In general, how do you feel about the balance of the classes right now? Warcraftlogs says Survival Hunters are the least represented spec right now, and are there any concerns about some classes or specs?
Ion: Overall I think we are satisfied with balance. There is always people who perceive themselves on the lower end, and no matter how good the balance is, no matter how tight the difference gap between the specs, probably lower is always going to feel frustrating about that, and people are going to be vocal about it. We understand that, but I think it is an ongoing process. We are never just sitting back and saying: “Alright, we are done. It’s ok if some specs fall behind.”
Representation doesn’t necessarily matter as much, I think. We knew with Survival Hunter that we were making a niche spec. It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing; but for new players picking up that class, it is an intriguing option; and we have seen a lot of Survival Hunters doing extremely well at very high levels of play. So the fact that they are not playing as often, I don’t think reflects upon their potential so much as it just does where the audience is at right now. That’s not much of a problem.
Basically, in that first part of what he said, he was flat out lying. They essentially broke RSV going into HFC with no intention to ever bring it’s performance up to par with other specs.
In the second part, he basically said:
“We knew that turning SV into a melee spec would not be a change intended to suit the majority of current hunters(current as of those changes).”
“But it adds a variety(and as other MSV posters in this very thread like to point out, “it adds a flavour”) to the class which has the potential to attract new players/players of other classes into trying it out.”
He also in that interview, acknowledged how they knew that MSV wasn’t that poorly represented in e.g. due to low performance. But due to it’s design not being intended for the players playing that class(Hunter).
He finished that off by saying:
That’s not much of a problem.
I mean, if they don’t care about the actual players who are invested in the class then sure, it’s not a problem. If they don’t care about players leaving the game because of such a massive change, which did not even pay off, then no, it was not a problem.
And this counts for pretty much nothing.
Everyone you know? And?
List?
If you only look at the end of the graph(which shows representation as of today) you are correct yes.
But that means nothing. As RSV does not exist today.
Or actually, it says a lot:
As of right now in PvE(raids), all hunter specs are close to equal in performance/strength. And yet, you can see that current SV is barely even visible in that graph.
Btw, if you look at the green line in that graph(which represents the SV spec) you can see in the middle where it took a huge dip, and has since barely climbed at all. That’s when it was turned into a melee spec.
Yep
You should learn how to use those websites. For “Current”, it shows BM as the most popular. Seriously, look at logs for RSV throughout Cata, MoP and WoD. Even during lulls when it wasn’t the best spec, it was STILL the most popular hunter spec by a huge margin. And again, RSV only fell from grace when Blizzard downright killed its damage during HFC in preparation for Legion. Exactly like they did with Demonology. However, Demonology at least still remained thematically the same. RSV was completely removed and replaced with a very niche spec, that Blizzard even admitted to knowing it was a niche spec designed for non hunters.
That’s also why I mentioned things like realmpop, which had RSV as the most popular spec in the entire game for a very long time. But, lets base it off what you said. “logs show whats strong”. MSV is a solid spec damage wise. It’s popularity on logs is still absolute trash. Why is that? Oh, right. It’s a niche spec designed for people who didn’t play hunters while alienating a huge majority of the hunter community.
Trap enhancer? Not nearly to the extent that RSV did. Interesting pet? What, is MSV the only spec who can get a pet now? No? Exactly, so even mentioning a pet is kind’ve a moot point. RSV could get all the same pets as MSV.
Like we said, multiple times. RSV was about exotic munitions. CC and kiting. Solid sustained damage, etc… MSV is literally Melee BM, which you continue to avoid denying. Despite its entire thematic saying otherwise.
Yeah, I’ve always been BM on my Hunter (seems like the one that changes the least.)
I feel for you, it would be VERY ODD to be a regular survival ranged Hunter and then they suddenly say “OH, you are melee now!”
Hmm, come to think of it something similar happened to me on this character! I’ve also seen complaints about how Frost used to be 2 hand. I seem to recall playing Frost when it was, as somewhat of a “tank” spec. I think that is why I’ve been blood since a change? I can’t recall now, it being so long ago. But I’ve even seen recent posts lamenting the Dk Frost change away from 2 hand. However, that is still a FAR cry from a Hunter spec going from Bow to melee.
Counts for about the same as some level 10 hunter on the forums
Perfect so bm was and always has been the most popular! Makes sense cause that’s what real life hunters are like. Hence the theme being the most popular
Yeah people play hunter for the ranged spec. Don’t disagree. Hence they play bm/mm. Sv though was always in a weird place, now it is much more unique from the other specs. Personally still play bm.
I dont see the dev saying it was flavor choice. That was the argument at hand.
Survival played almost exactly like BM before the changes. You had like 2 abilities that differed and you could put them in the same slots on your bar as each spec and change almost nothing about your rotation. Survival was my go-to Hunter spec before too, but honestly the Survival Overhaul was much needed to get some variety in the class.
My horde hunter is survival and it’s amazing.
Although I’m not opposed to additional specs for any class.
why stop at hunter and druid give all classes a 4th spec.
This is all mechanical; in terms of identity it was the spec that focused on enhanced projectiles i.e. poisons and explosives. That’s a very common motif in fantasy games so it makes sense to have a spec in WoW that represents that.
Also, SV was a sustained damage spec. MM was the one with the great burst.
You made a good chunk of the last couple days of this thread a discussion about me instead of Survival so yes I would say you’re the one derailing the discussion.
I see people do it all the time including in this very thread as well as the one with all the Classic die-hards on the Hunter forum. Are you seriously denying that it’s a popular buzzword in class design discussions?
Listen to yourself for a second, god damn.
Sorry I paraphrased? The exact quote was “The Hunter is a unique class in World of Warcraft because it is primarily a ranged attacker”. How is summarising that to “Ranged is the defining element” not an accurate take?
Pets clearly come secondary to ranged weapons in that manual description. It’s also evident from the nature of the class in game itself that pets are secondary to ranged weapons when it comes to the class identity. The first time you had a petless Hunter option was in WoD; both MM and SV got the Lone Wolf talent. So to make a spec petless they just needed to add 1 talent; the look and feel of the specs were virtually unchanged. Yet when they changed one of the specs to melee it required totally remaking that spec and rewriting the class definition so it could actually fit a melee-only spec.
I’m talking about their Vanilla class intent because many people claim that the class in Vanilla was intended to facilitate a melee-only playstyle i.e. one that eschews the ranged weapon, and therefore they use that as a platform to justify the current melee Survival. That doesn’t work. Somehow the common knowledge now says that Legion and BFA Survival were more similar to the Vanilla iteration to MoP and WoD Survival when that just isn’t true when you actually look at the toolkit of each iteration.
You think those sorts of people always indicate that it’s just their opinion? In just these recent few posts you have multiple people saying that Survival was the same as MM, stated as fact when it isn’t even accurate.
I’ve been saying that the original description stated ranged weapons are what made the class unique, you agreed with this earlier in this post, so evidently I’m not making things up.
Your argument is flimsy as all hell. You are saying that I’m writing posts on the forums in the hopes that no one would read them. What ever would be the point of that? I asked this in my post and you didn’t address it.
It’s maximally dishonest to pretend any of those things are elements that were important to the Hunter identity let alone as important as ranged weapons.
Pet happiness is all but a footnote in that manual description, whereas the opening sentence itself declares the importance of ranged combat.
Again, look at the example I used with Lone Wolf. Ask yourself what actually changed about the look and feel of the Hunter class when you no longer had to use ammo or feed pets. Very little to nothing at all.
You picked like 3 or 4 lines out of my multiple posts here which a) were not hidden and b) were not bad arguments. So actually your examples along with your argument as a whole are terrible.
At this point you’re contributing absolutely nothing to the thread except complaining about your feelings being hurt, so maybe this just isn’t the thread for you? You’re just wasting everyone’s time.
Ranged SV was not a sniper. That’s MM. Ranged SV was a utilitarian approach to ranged weapons that focused on enhanced projectiles rather than raw sharpshooting skill. Those are different approaches to ranged weapons.
It’s like how both Assassination and Subtlety are stealth-based fast-paced dual-wielders that use combo points, but we understand that there is a crucial difference in style between the two specs as one is based on the stealthy aspect while the other is based on poisons and bleed attacks.
Plus, as other people have pointed out, it doesn’t fit a “completely different mold”. Beast Mastery is the spec that’s based on Rexxar because, as it turns out, the defining aspect of Rexxar is not necessarily the melee combat but rather the animal bond (Seriously, go look at his Warcraft 3 toolkit. I feel like not enough people have actually done that). Survival, in fact, borrows excessively from BM making it not nearly as unique as you think it is.
We can’t tell what a spec’s popularity is outside of raids and rated PvP but historical data shows that ranged SV was very popular in those areas at time. You even have tiers like Siege of Orgrimmar where BM does more DPS but more people in the raid are playing SV.
Yes, all Hunters have traps but SV had better traps, just like how all Hunters had pets but BM has the best pets.
It’s laughably misinformed to call ranged SV the lost spec. It had a consistent model of playstyle and identity for 4 expansions. Melee SV has been through 2 major reworks in just as many expansions and is currently an ill-defined mish-mash of unrelated concepts like “melee skirmisher/Arms Warrior 2.0” (Raptor Strike, Carve), “BM Hunter but melee” (Kill Command, Coordinated Assault), and “Resourceful utilitarian” (Serpent Sting, Wildfire Bomb). The current iteration of SV is the most “lost” and directionless iteration out of all of them.
As I said previously, obviously it is not more “unique and cool” than the last one simply by virtue of the last one not having to borrow the signature ability of another Hunter spec like the current one.
Then what is your justification for the statement “BM was always more popular”?
Pets are a BM thing and borrowing BM stuff makes it not unique. Its trap focus is very weak compared to ranged Survival as it no longer has Entrapment (root effect on trap proc) and Trap Mastery (trap buff and cooldown reduction)… two things it had in every ranged iteration from Vanilla to WoD, by the way.
So you have a tacked-on melee weapon that only exists as an excuse to say the spec is different to the other Hunter specs. That’s an incredibly weak justification. Should they remove Stealth from Outlaw rogues just to make it more different to the other Rogue specs? Survival had enough uniqueness before it was melee.
Not every ranged spec is a sniper and people evidently liked what ranged Survival was because it was consistently a very popular spec.
Emoji spam makes you sound like a 10-year-old.
Popularity is a function of performance and playstyle likability. Plus, current Survival is very strong in PvP yet its a rare sight in battlegrounds; it’s only prevalent in high-rated PvP due to its overtuning there.
As someone else pointed out, you have to look at historical data. Specifically from WCL, which started in WoD, you should look at the parse counts over the course of Highmaul (not just the last 2 weeks as the default page shows). I linked a graph of them earlier in this thread.
He is posting from a level 10 because he is from EU and needed a US character to post. Grats on being uninformed.
You’re making less and less sense the more you post. Sounds like you’re becoming unhinged. He literally said BM is more popular now but in the past SV has been more popular as a ranged spec.
I was just in a Throne of Thunder LFR on a MoP server earlier. There were 5 Hunters in the raid, all of them were Survival. In a patch where BM is better. Try finding something like that in current WoW. I regularly do epic battlegrounds and see 10-12 Hunters, none being Survival.
Yes, I’m glad we agree that melee is dragging down the spec into obscurity. Why keep it melee, then? Rogues have 3 stealthy dual-wield specs, Mages and Warlocks have 3 caster specs, Hunters were and will be just fine with 3 ranged weapon specs.
Melee has only made the spec more directionless and unpopular. Just because you are misinformed about Hunters doesn’t mean the rest of us are.
Uh, no. No, it didn’t. BM had Kill Command, Bestial Wrath, and the entire Focus Fire system, SV didn’t. Meanwhile, SV had Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Lock and Load, and Serpent Sting while BM didn’t. Stop lying about the past.
Plus, how can you even say with a straight face that it was the same as BM before yet now it’s different? It literally has BM’s signature ability now (Kill Command), along with a renamed Bestial Wrath (Coordinated Assault) and a stolen BM passive (Spirit Bond).
No, we did not need the Survival overhaul. We had enough variety already. Making Survival melee was, for most Hunters, removing a choice and not giving one as most Hunters want ranged weapons.
Unbelievable how people feel so confident in posting unfiltered misinformation about Hunters.
RSV was never great. Couldn’t make the cut. Let’s move on shall we.
why?
Because it was the FIRST sentence??? What!?
It has as much presence as the ranged part it even had its own heading how is that different?
Bepples, if someone prefers melee dps, does that invalidate their opinion, and make them ignorant? (Thats what you stated.)
Why?