All of the people saying “melee Surv is great, forget you” that aren’t hunter mains, I want to go to your main and rework your spec just because.
Let’s take your favorite rogue spec and make it ranged, basing it entirely around throwing daggers and axes!
Let’s take enhancement shamans and make them Rockbiter weapon tanks and no longer a dps spec.
Let’s take Mages, delete arcane, and make a melee “battlemage” spec that revolves around lightning instead.
Let’s rework unholy DKs to a ranged dps spec that shoots bone beams and summons pets more heavily, then rename the spec “Necromancers”!
If I were a game dev, all of these sound more fun than the current specs. I would also never in a million years do this to older, established classes because thousands of people have stuck by certain specs through buffs and nerfs, ride or die, because they like the spec’s flavor or playstyle.
Honestly, judging from some of the MSV defenders in this thread, I almost want Blizzard to just delete MSV from the game and move the MSV Artifact appearances to Arms Warrior to justify making Survival strictly ranged again.
Then maybe at some point in the future they could add MSV back as a 4th spec for Hunter after MSV’s been gone for a while.
Realistically, I think they should just add back the ranged Survival gameplay as a 4th spec as it would be the least disruptive way to bring back RSV from both game development and player perspectives. Arguing against even this idea is absolutely ridiculous.
You know, I don’t think they should bring RSV back. I think they should create a new class, lets name it…hmmm, RANGER!!
You could wear leather without penalty, your stealth skills could approach a rogues and you could be equally skilled in daggers and other weapons like javelins and ranged. Maybe a little field medic mixed into it. Oh, and those lovely
LnL procs.
If your idea of a reward is you not doing the thing you’re chastising him for doing, I do disagree.
You’re both in the “I’m right, you’re wrong” camp. You can’t claim a high horse from there. In this case you claiming the high horse was what made you lose it. You went on to insult somebody and tell him he was absolutely wrong for saying he was absolutely right.
I don’t think he’s absolutely right.
But I think land should be returned to Native Americans because they had it first.
I think when one child steals a toy, it should be returned to the other child because they had it first.
I think things shouldn’t be ripped away from one person and given to another.
Yes, this is just my opinion. But if you take a step back it’s an opinion that’s based on something pretty fundamental.
What I really wish people who weren’t sure would do is just one little thing:
Look at the level of their necks.
Look at it on the people who are saying they love melee Survival and look at it on the people who want ranged Survival back.
If you don’t see a massive difference in favour of people saying bring ranged back, I’ll shut up and concede.
I don’t think so only because there are ONLY FOUR CLASSES that have no option to have a role besides DPS.
With que times as they are, and skewed as they are, there needs to be no classes that don’t have at least one option.
You’re basically telling people: If you main a warlock, rogue, hunter or mage, you are never getting a goodie sack. That sucks if you’re going to have unique items like pets and mount in there.
It also contributes to outrageous que times because these people are just forced to que as DPS no matter what.
He say’s as he posts a novel of a response after we moved past it.
Here you go again man, using the flavor argument. Where is it getting applied to design choices? Are devs saying their changing the hunter to MSV for flavor?
Oh I agree that ranged attack is a main aspect of the hunter. So is the pet. The manual doesn’t say “This is the defining trait of the hunter.” It says that’s what makes it unique, it also says pets are a key component of the class. Wouldn’t that be just as unique it’s identity?
If your basing your argument on the Vanilla definition of the hunter man, you’re far from that iteration. No Ammo, No teachable pet skills, Not having to feed your pet.
Note how the word THINK is in there. That indicates it’s an opinion. when you people say “Flavor is a catchall buzzword used to excuse horrible design.” In a three paragraph response as their argument point. THAT’S Gish Galloping.
Because you are. You don’t get to decide what people find iconic to the Hunter for EVERYONE. That’s what makes your argument weak. I’m glad you can see it.
Oh for sure, I agree. Same with removing ammo. Same with removing feeding pets, same with removing pet training. Every change went against the Hunter Identity.
Bepples your holy text of REAL blizzard material also talks about feeding pets and training your pet with skills. Going off that logic, we should bring this back as well, or do you get to cherry pick what of that sacred text is good or not?
No, I showed great examples. You’re just trying to fabricate ways stating your opinion as fact is somehow not a weak argument.
You have a serious comprehension problem, and i’m starting to think you’re on the same league as him and enjoy talking down to other people to make yourself feel better.
One last time, i’m not saying i’m right, hence i started with “i probably don’t have a voice”, but then again if you want me to disappear from the forums because i don’t share your opinions, please report me and if i’m really on the wrong here i’ll get banned, easy as that.
I posted an opinion, a point of view, and suddenly i’m the devil??? please, learn to accept others believe different stuff, no one is right on a subjective matter.
If you still want to claim i’m on a high horse claiming my truth is the absolute you clearly didn’t read what i posted.
Take from this what you will, i won’t waste more energy explaining the same thing another dozen times.
I enjoy survival quite a bit. I also enjoy bm. I don’t see why you need to revert survival though… You have the sniper theme and the pet/ranged theme. Survival fits a completely different mold based of rexxar.
What other ranged sniper themes do you need to fit outside of bm/mm?
We want the old Survival back as a fourth spec, you know, the ranged spec focusing on traps, exotic munitions and venom. The spec that was the most popular Hunter spec for over a decade.
We’ve said several times that Melee can stay, just give us ours back as well. Then everyone wins.
Ummmm… Pretty sure beast master has always been and always be the most popular spec. Just because people might not play it when it’s weak doesn’t mean the theme isn’t awesome.
Traps are a general hunter thing, not a survival thing. Hunters litteraly make traps. Honestly the old survival felt kinda like a lost spec, I like the current iteration way more. Of course bm/mm are better because they’re ranged but sv is still unique and cool. Way more so than before that’s for sure.
Ranged Survival was literally the most popular hunter spec, the most popular alt of choice and more people had a Survival hunter than any other class, counting ALL characters.
Ranged Survivals representation was always at the top, or among the top. Even when it wasn’t performing the best. The only time SV really fell in popularity was when Blizzard completely killed the spec during Hellfire Citadel in WoD, just like they did with Demonology.
You are also being obtuse. Survival was the spec that enhanced the traps. Was the best Hunter spec for CC and Kiting. It literally had the highest representation in PvP and PvE.
I’m glad you like the current iteration of being a discount warrior with a pet. I really am. No one is denying that a small minority enjoy Melee Survival. We just want OUR spec back. Which again, was insanely represented in all forms of content. Especially when you compare it to this niche Melee shenanigans that struggles to peak at 1% on good days.
Seriously, scroll up and look at the logs Bepples posted for when Survival was ranged. Then look at logs for current Survival. BM has always been a popular spec, but no where near what Ranged Survival was.
I also can’t take you seriously when you say
It’s not unique at all. It’s entire thematic is literally Melee Beast Mastery. It uses BM’s signature ability, Kill Command. With other abilities like Coordinated Assault, which is BM themed. And even has talents that buff things like…Kill Command. How any of you people can say Ranged Survival wasn’t unique then praise Melee Survival for being totally unique and the greatest thing since sliced bread, I’ll never know.
Again, none of us are asking for MSV to be removed, we just want our spec, the spec we played and loved for over a decade to come back.
Ridiculous statement. If you don’t remember all aspects of the old spec designs then fair enough, go read up on the actual differences, in terms of mechanical design, CD lengths, damage types, application varieties, and more.
If you’re basing that statement solely on the fact that both specs were relying on a ranged weapon, honestly just stop.
As have been pointed out already, that’s incorrect.
Fair enough if you think so. But you do know current MSV isn’t exactly containing any particularly unique abilities at all, do you? And I base that statement on your presumed logic(what you said just a sentence ago).
All ranged dps specs in the entire game can do so.
The difference being that those ranged specs would not lose out on damage if they stepped out of melee range. Something MSV would.
You acknowledged this yourself:
This should indicate to you that the design does not intend for you to actually step out of melee range. And yes, there are certain situations where it would be favorable to, as MSV, step away from an enemy to allow for ranged attacks and DoTs and the pet to continue. But this equals only “your method of playing”. It does not equal the “intended design”.
Again, fair enough, you’re free to play the game however you want. But don’t use your method of playing as an argument towards what a spec is designed for you to be doing.
We aren’t specifically after the WoD-style of survival. We are after the actual core theme of the old SV which existed from WotLK up until WoD.
Marksmanship is still a spec themed around properly aiming a ranged weapon. In taking your time to hit that perfect spot.
SV is no longer themed around enhancing ammunition used by ranged weapons, it’s no longer themed around a ranged weapon at all. Nor is it themed around the enhancement of traps, something the old SV also did.
What you equate with “run-and-gun” is the strict mechanical design of allowing you to move around without restrictions while executing all your attacks without hindrance.
What you fail to do, is comprehending how unique themes, aesthetics and ability-mechanics caters towards individual player preferences.
In short, it’s not just about us being able to move around all the time.
Again, “method of play” has nothing to do with “intent of design”.
Besides, if you think that the difference between old MM and old SV(WoD) was only about switching out 2 abilities and then pressing the new ones you added in the same way as you did with the old ones then no, you don’t know how to play the specs at high level. Or at least, not how they were supposed to be played back then.
Feel free to read through and get back to me with some feedback(US) :
How was it a mix of MM+BM?
In what way did it have “0 identity” when compared to BM/MM?
And the Affliction Warlock ability - Unstable Affliction, is just a renamed version of the Destruction Warlock ability - Immolate.
Different magic schools/damage types, ways of application, CDs, duration, and other mechanics, just like how you equated Chimera Shot with Explosive Shot.
But yeah, all of the above were/are exactly the same…
Agree 100%.
In it’s own way, I can see why you would want that. Though, as a Hunter, who loved the old RSV, I can’t agree with you on this.
Keep in mind that a Hunter tank spec, would involve a pet. And a tank spec which includes pets would be a mechanical disaster, to say the least.
Novel huh…
What is a “novel” to you? An A4-page worth of text?
That is what they said yes.
Specifically, they said they knew that MSV “came with a flavour which was not necessarily intended for current hunters”. By current, I/they mean the hunters who were playing back then when they did change it.
Sniper themes?
Something which we aren’t advocating for here.
We want a spec with a main focus on enhancing the ammunition/arrows as well as traps. Not the sniper fantasy of focusing on the archery/sharpshooting. Nor are we after the BM fantasy of a pet commander who happens to be wielding a ranged weapon.
Exactly.
Incorrect, this has also been proven many times before in this very thread.
But here it is again.
Popularity/representation from MoP up until today:
Logs show litteraly nothing about popularity they show what was strong which is why they would play it.
Omegalul… It still has all the trap enhancer, net and melee with an interesting pet. It’s very unique.
Lol everyone I know who plays hunter wants these two themes it’s a literal hunter with a companion or a long range sniper (which could have ammo modifications). The weird af survival we had before was not in the list lol.
The link when I open it shows me bm was the most popular
Regardless logs don’t show jack about theme/popularity. It shows what’s strong.
In general, how do you feel about the balance of the classes right now? Warcraftlogs says Survival Hunters are the least represented spec right now, and are there any concerns about some classes or specs?
Ion: Overall I think we are satisfied with balance. There is always people who perceive themselves on the lower end, and no matter how good the balance is, no matter how tight the difference gap between the specs, probably lower is always going to feel frustrating about that, and people are going to be vocal about it. We understand that, but I think it is an ongoing process. We are never just sitting back and saying: “Alright, we are done. It’s ok if some specs fall behind.”
Representation doesn’t necessarily matter as much, I think. We knew with Survival Hunter that we were making a niche spec. It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing; but for new players picking up that class, it is an intriguing option; and we have seen a lot of Survival Hunters doing extremely well at very high levels of play. So the fact that they are not playing as often, I don’t think reflects upon their potential so much as it just does where the audience is at right now. That’s not much of a problem.
Basically, in that first part of what he said, he was flat out lying. They essentially broke RSV going into HFC with no intention to ever bring it’s performance up to par with other specs.
In the second part, he basically said:
“We knew that turning SV into a melee spec would not be a change intended to suit the majority of current hunters(current as of those changes).”
“But it adds a variety(and as other MSV posters in this very thread like to point out, “it adds a flavour”) to the class which has the potential to attract new players/players of other classes into trying it out.”
He also in that interview, acknowledged how they knew that MSV wasn’t that poorly represented in e.g. due to low performance. But due to it’s design not being intended for the players playing that class(Hunter).
He finished that off by saying:
That’s not much of a problem.
I mean, if they don’t care about the actual players who are invested in the class then sure, it’s not a problem. If they don’t care about players leaving the game because of such a massive change, which did not even pay off, then no, it was not a problem.
If you only look at the end of the graph(which shows representation as of today) you are correct yes.
But that means nothing. As RSV does not exist today.
Or actually, it says a lot:
As of right now in PvE(raids), all hunter specs are close to equal in performance/strength. And yet, you can see that current SV is barely even visible in that graph.
Btw, if you look at the green line in that graph(which represents the SV spec) you can see in the middle where it took a huge dip, and has since barely climbed at all. That’s when it was turned into a melee spec.
You should learn how to use those websites. For “Current”, it shows BM as the most popular. Seriously, look at logs for RSV throughout Cata, MoP and WoD. Even during lulls when it wasn’t the best spec, it was STILL the most popular hunter spec by a huge margin. And again, RSV only fell from grace when Blizzard downright killed its damage during HFC in preparation for Legion. Exactly like they did with Demonology. However, Demonology at least still remained thematically the same. RSV was completely removed and replaced with a very niche spec, that Blizzard even admitted to knowing it was a niche spec designed for non hunters.
That’s also why I mentioned things like realmpop, which had RSV as the most popular spec in the entire game for a very long time. But, lets base it off what you said. “logs show whats strong”. MSV is a solid spec damage wise. It’s popularity on logs is still absolute trash. Why is that? Oh, right. It’s a niche spec designed for people who didn’t play hunters while alienating a huge majority of the hunter community.
Trap enhancer? Not nearly to the extent that RSV did. Interesting pet? What, is MSV the only spec who can get a pet now? No? Exactly, so even mentioning a pet is kind’ve a moot point. RSV could get all the same pets as MSV.
Like we said, multiple times. RSV was about exotic munitions. CC and kiting. Solid sustained damage, etc… MSV is literally Melee BM, which you continue to avoid denying. Despite its entire thematic saying otherwise.
:
they show what was strong which is why they would play it.
it’s a literal hunter with a companion or a long range sniper (which could have ammo modifications). The weird af survival we had before was not in the list lol.