Awesome, this is great to hear!
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We obviously have different definitions of what “right away” means. Completing 50-80 dungeons and spending several hundred thousand, potentially millions of gold is not what I consider “right away.”
How are they nerfing M+ by allowing players to craft several bis pieces by running M+? Are you actually having fun waiting for the great vault each week for a chance at an upgrade?
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Because it takes effort to build and maintain a raiding roster and that’s where the best gear should come from… m+ and crafting are feeding welfare systems and m+ players and crafters are second class citizens. This patch just puts them back where they belong.
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As a raider, I don’t mind (in concept) crafted gear being the same as wing end bosses from mythic raid. It’s bad luck protection for those slots, which is a good thing for WoW to have.
The only problem with it from 10.0 was the sheer quantity of keys I had to run to upgrade everything. It wasn’t so bad on my main, but ugh it sucked on my alt. Hoping the new system feels better on that front–it looks like it should be.
I kinda hate this kind of statement. If that’s the logic, why stop at 20? Why not 10? Why not 5? Or the other direction, 22?And 25? And 28? And 30? What about 35?
Even at ~22/23 you hit a point where anything less than perfect execution means you don’t time, outside of a couple of gimme dungeons.
To be clear, trying to determine which one is harder is an exercise in futility, because “difficulty” is a subjective metric. Do you include organizational overhead? Do you include the entire group? Most of my raiding experience is waiting for 2-3 people to stop messing up, and I’m usually not one of them. The difficulty of a dungeon OR a boss the first time you pull it vs the 100th time is vastly different too. This isn’t a reactive game, after all.
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This.
M+ is not easier. Just more accessible. That’s what makes it easier to gear in. At least if you put in the time to be competent enough to do it.
They either need accept that it’s more accessible or lower the max rewards you can get from it. Continually moving the goal posts to the point only a handful of the player base wants to do it is not how to balance it with raids.
M+ used to be fun. In BfA you could carry one or two guildees in +10 to get them a good chest reward. Now it’s an infuriating annoying anxiety inducing slog I dread doing. Used to look forward to M+ runs, now I avoid them. Just something I put up with for gear.
And forget trying to carry people in a 20. You just don’t miss on time now, you start hard failing keys around 11’s.
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always fun to see this take from somebody who still doesn’t have CE
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The entire raiding system needs to be revamped. Instead of ruining M+ and making it worse, they need to improve raiding. More loot from bosses, changing boss lockouts, changing raid lockouts, etc., etc.
Like you said, the most difficult aspect of mythic raiding is keeping 20-25 people interested long enough to clear the raid.
I raided Mythic Sanctum on MG and believe me, the raider population there is small. Maintaining a roster and recruiting people is a horrible process. No raider worth their salt is settling for an RP realm, so it’s either pack up and leave, or try to make it work.
M+ allows you to jump in and have decent fun. And besides, the gear from the vault is what matters. The 405 stuff you can get to 415 was impeded by valor caps for the first few months of the expac anywhere, so it’s not “lightning fast”.
On topic, setting the limit to +22 is eh. You’re getting to the point where people on non-meta classes have to struggle for the simple fact the balancing ball didn’t land in their court. It’s easier for raiding, you have 20 spots and raid bosses have more gimmicks that promote more comp diversity.
M+ isn’t like that. M+ is taking whatever meta damage spec you can that also brings enough utility and survivability. So if your class had meh damage, you’re already at a disadvantage.
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I think that when you start with OP claiming that the form of content he prefers is the only real challenge in the game–a plainly absurd statement–one way to disprove that is by looking at the quantity of people to do the thing that OP is talking about compared to the quantity of people who were able to complete other things.
M+ is drastically more accessible than mythic raiding, that’s an absolute fact. And organizing 20 people to do anything is always going to be harder than organizing 5 people.
But mechanically and numerically, 20s are just easier to do than most mythic raid encounters. The DPS checks are lower, the HPS checks are lower, and there are fewer mechanics compared to raid bosses that drop the same 421 level rewards that 20s give you in the vault. Add that to the easier time finding a capable group, the complete absence of any need for coms, and the low barriers to entry, and I’d say keys are just plain easier all around.
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No and yes. No it shouldn’t drop the highest ilvl gear, yes it should be upgradable to the highest ilvl. Harder content should just get you to max ilvl faster. This makes all gear useful and gives casuals gear progression they can work towards to keep people playing.
The biggest problem with WoW currently is they only develop character progression content for ~20% of the players. On top of that only ~5% will do the higher content and get the highest loot. For an MMO that wants to retain it’s subscribers this is a terrible development decision. If you want WoW to continue to develop new content then you want the majority to have something to do to continue playing. The only thing that continual elitist appeasement will result in is a MMO ghost town on life support, can’t brag about how leet you and your gear is when no one is playing the game.
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He is partially correct. Keys continue to scale over the course of the patch. Mythic raiding only gets easier.
Saying either is “harder” is dubious. It’s as quantitative as saying one is more “fun” than the other. It’s not an objective measurement at all.
But why 20s specifically? That’s kind of like the barrier between low keys and thigh keys, comparable to maybe Eranog on the mythic side.
Eranog and council are “mythic raid bosses” the same way +20 SBG is a mythic plus.
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Oh no… How ever will you survive?
I mean you can champion that type of gearing all you want, but that isn’t what WoW has been based on for its 18 year existence as the most successful MMO of all time. It was like that at launch, during its peak in Wrath, and in DF.
So I doubt it’s changing any time soon.
He’s talking about 20s and 22s, though, which have also gotten huge nerfs over the course of the patch, and are effectively nerfed again by the new 424 rings buffing (almost) everyone’s throughput. Getting M+ title is challenging for sure (can’t compare it to CE since the cut off changes to cap the number of people who get it).
I’d support a system of separating M+ and raid gear completely tbh, like we do for PvE and PvP. I dislike that I am required to play both forms of content at a reasonably high level to do the thing I care about in the game, which is raiding. I’m running 20s every week during prog, even though I find them largely boring. M+ offers rewards that are just too good. I raid two nights a week, and I would love to only play about that much, but that’s just not an option because keys are so mandatory, at least early in a patch.
I would say that, as the patch winds down, I don’t really care if we start making heroic level gear available to everyone (like we are now with timewalking).
I strongly disagree with this.
Mechanics per minute. Lets define that as how many of these things per minute of in combat:
Having to run out of something.
Having to run into something.
Having to switch targets.
Having to interrupt something.
Having to use a defensive.
Having to use a CC.
M+ is constantly dealing with one those plus you have the added randomness of affixes and how they can adversely interact.
Again, it may be easier to be successful at it. But that’s probably due to it being a lot easier to find 4 dependable players for 30 minutes than it is to find 24 dependable players for 2 hours.
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I doubt it changes as well, but the fact that the most successful times in WoW’s history were periods where normal players had access to meaningful gear progression should speak volumes.
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yeah i really don’t want to get into the whole “X is harder!!!” debate because it’s a pointless one even by the standards of these forums, but this was an odd claim. there are definitely trash pulls in m+ that have more to deal with than some of the easy mythic raid bosses.
it’s easy to get a skewed picture of either endgame mode if you’re in a good group. you can get some mythic raid kills without really knowing what you’re doing, just like you can luck into a pug of 2.8k+ alts who can time a +20 whether you die every pull or not. that doesn’t really say much about the difficulty of either mode.
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I mean, you basically aoe stop as much as possible, kick the spells plater highlights, and don’t stand in shockwaves or swirlies. The mechanics are baby basic in almost every case, even if there are numerically more of them.
Having to move a foot to your left to not get one shot by a swirlie is barely a mechanic.
I just don’t buy that it’s harder than raid mechanics.
The hardest part about keys is learning what each mob does. Dealing with it once you know about it is easy, but there is a large quantity of knowledge you need to play every dungeon at a high level. That’s not hard to figure out though, just time consuming.