So you kick the first group to get mind controlled who obviously didn’t use their necks. Now you have 25 people consisting of the ones you know possess the skills to press the big button occasionally plus a handful of randoms who may or may not. After the next pull you do another round of kicks. Now you are likely to have less than 5 randoms and you start trying to kill the actual boss.
If you are clear with what is happening not many people will leave reducing turn over.
This kinda crap just reinforces my already low opinion of LFR “raiders.”
I’ve never really been for kicking people out of LFR unless they are AFK, or deliberately trying to sabotage the raid.
It is easier to explain the simple fight mechanics, spend 2 minutes organizing groups, then adjusting or reiterating mechanics if you see people failing.
It really does help if someone is actually taking control of the group and leading it.
After 2-3 pulls of that, most of the raid understands and does the mechanics without issue. 2-6 pulls, and you’ll kill the boss.
The fact you have to kick half the raid 2 to 3 times doesn’t strike you as being a problem? This is LFR, with the worst gear in the game that isn’t even guaranteed. People come to finish their quest.
Then maybe they should press the massive e button with a reduced to 60 seconds cd.
Remove LFR and you remove this problem. Simple solution.
OP would have had a much easier time just pugging a Normal group one off-night but he’s stubborn and refuses to do so, hence a perennial LFR “raider”.
Bro, youre 100% right.
Heroic is easier because people do the mechanics, lfr would be easier if people did the mechanics
…
All i am saying is give it a go, you’ll see.
Without a leader or guidance, its just a mishmash of people who dont care. It is so much harder because of that…
The state of LFR currently sucks. Either make it easier so its a true cakewalk, or remove it. Its just a dumpster fire.
I’m recently back from a long break, and I joined a guild filled with a lot of other people who are in the same boat. The main guild members had Heroic on farm, and they stayed around long enough to run us through our first normal clear of Nya’lotha. After that, they lost interest.
That left the returning members without any more free carries (which all of us agree is good). We have been slowly progressing through the content in hopes of getting AOTC in a week or two (10/12H now). I’ve been running my Hunter on the main raids, but I’ve been running a Warrior tank during our weekly alt run.
I haven’t really tanked since Wrath, so I decided to start tanking on our alt runs. To practice, I went into LFR with a far more experienced tank than me. They were are Carapace with 4 stacks when we got there. Carapace is a very simple fight once people learn to not stand under tentacles, so we made short work of that.
Then off to N’Zoth we went. One of the few times I didn’t mind wiping because it gave me more practice for Normal N’zoth that night. All in all, with a LOT of instruction to the raid group, we finally killed N’Zoth with 7 stacks of Determination. Easily the quickest I’ve ever seen him go down in LFR. My Heroic-geared DH tank was ranked #1 DPS by a wide margin. I was around 7 on my 450 Warrior tank.
By far the biggest issue we had, other than the 20-25k average DPS, was getting people to target synapses. We could mark the synapse, move Psychus to a synapse, and /rw repeatedly, but they would target AND KILL everything except the correct synapse. Combine that with the low DPS, and we ended up wiping 7 times.
I think this is likely one of the biggest problems with the fight in LFR. If the Synaptic Shock debuff time was increased (or the range was increased to a quadrant), and the groups were automatically selected and teleported into the mindgate (somebody else suggested this earlier), it would significantly improve the LFR experience without any other nerfs. Low DPS would still cause some wipes until determination built up a little. However, it would require a lot less coordination, and coordination is the Achilles heel of LFR and one of the primary reasons it almost always takes 10-20 times to kill LFR N’zoth.
LFR should be easier the Normal. After we downed LFR, we went into Normal and one-shot Carapace and N’zoth with our alt group. It was the first time most of us had killed N’zoth on our alts, and most of us only had 1 kill on our mains (via carry) before we moved to Heroic. I say that to illustrate the fact that Carapace and N’zoth were not on farm, even though it felt like they were this weekend.
People keep saying it’s easier than normal, but I suspect if you look at wipes/attempts on LFR, and you judged the difficulty based on that ratio, you would find that LFR is much harder to complete than Normal for most groups. It doesn’t need a full-scale nerf, but there are a couple things Blizzard could do to make it more friendly to the less coordinated groups you find in LFR.
LFR only seems harder because people are still under the impression that since it’s LFR, you can literally afk, do nothing, and still win.
You cannot.
With that being said, it’s not hard.
It is. Mathematically. The people being bad make it hard.
A full group that does normal would do lfr more easily.
Lfr is easier.
I don’t think it’s possible for even Blizzard to provide these statistics, but I’m curious what the average iLevel in LFR vs. normal N’zoth attempts is.
I have a feeling that a lot of folks do LFR right at the minimum iLevel required to queue (because why else would you do it? The loot is awful if you spend even a few more days gearing), whereas most normals are significantly overgeared… to the extent that LFR is numerically harder (compared to average gear level) than normal.
You can validly argue that it’s the player’s fault for not bringing 440 people to normal N’zoth, but we all know that isn’t going to change.
It really depends on your math. If you chose to determine difficulty using attempts/wipes, it is more difficult. It would be the same as putting a mechanic in the game that required 20 people to hit their spacebar within .5 seconds before they could kill a boss with 20HP. Would that be more difficult than killing a boss with 10k HP, but not needing to jump? Mathematically, it would be. Realistically it would not be.
Probably 410.01
Yea it depends if you use the wrong metrics or not.
The task of killing g nzoth required to bring his Hp to (close to) 0 while remaining alive.
This is an easier task with the lfr set of tasks than the normal set of tasks assuming everything else (ilvl, number of players etc) is the same. Period.
The problem is not the boss or the mechanics, the problem, as you pointed out, is the people. Blizz could nerf nzoth or any boss for the matter to the ground and make him do 1 damage and heal 1M to the party and the raid would fail anyways.
At the end of legion I did aggramar (A fairly easy boss) on LFR with one of my alts and it was impossible. And neither the damage nor the mechanics were the problem.
This isn’t really a rational assumption, though.
The players equipped iLevel compared to iLevel of drops is much lower in LFR than normal. A lot of normal N’zoth groups won’t even take people who can get iLevel upgrades from the first 10 bosses.
The number of players is typically lower in normal (N’zoth is a LOT easier the smaller your group is - ergo the number of people who do 2/2/6 kills on normal/heroic)
The players aren’t cut from the same cloth. Nobody is pretending LFR players are good - slapping them in full normal Ny’alotha gear so they outgear the fight wouldn’t make a difference, just like how many AOTC players would be unfit to perform in mythic Ny’alotha even if they were given your gear.
… and that’s okay, it’s okay for bad players to be given bad gear from LFR. Easy content for mediocre rewards that’ll be replaced in a few days, if not sooner. It’s not like it’s a privilege to see the boss kill cinematic - YouTube is right there, after all. Loot (including the tiny bit of AP from the quest) is all that it comes down to.
That isn’t my point at all though. My point is that the same players in the same gear would find lfr way easier than normal. Therefore lfr is easier. That’s it. Period.
Now if you take lfr players and put them in normal they will find it harder.
Comparing lfr players in lfr to normal players in normal is changing more than one variable.
I am of the same mindset. I stopped normal Raiding in MoP and became an LFR hero instead as I had much less time to play. It has always been my experience that LFR relies solely on it’s hero’s. This group is comprised of a small smattering of normal+ Raiders who go for their own reasons and a larger group of folks that consider LFR their end-game (like me).
It is these folks that carry the dead weight but it looks like things may be changing now. The normal Raiders seem to have grown tired of it and the LFR folks that have always tried have realized that for FAR less hassle, you can spend your time in low M+ dungeons and come out WAY ahead.
So, with the folks that usually carry these runs now actively avoiding LFR more and more, you are left with groups that will inevitably struggle and usually fail. Sub 20k DPS even with 10 stacks is tragic but they just are not aware nor seemingly even care.
There still seems a few hero’s out there determined to help LFR out, but with the incentives all but gone, it seems to be just a matter of time before the only one’s left are those wanting a carry and we are seeing how well that doesn’t work right now.
Okay, so if your point is that normal N’zoth has more HP and damage than LFR N’zoth… then yeah, absolutely. Literally impossible to argue with that.
I thought your point was that an average group of LFR players will have an easier time with LFR N’zoth than Normal players do with Normal N’zoth, which has not been most people’s experiences… since N’zoth is not designed for fiestas, and LFR is one humongous clusterf- …iesta.
No I know that anything with lfr players is a cluster f…iesta (I like that btw going to use that).
I just don’t see what is wrong with requiring something of them though if they want to kill an end of expansion old God boss.
I also think that people would find nzoth easier if more bosses in the raid had some teeth to them. Atm it’s like fighting your way through a rest home until you get to the last boss who a really has their dentures in.
If they took out the disorient on the fire from Deathwing people wouldn’t wipe on that phase of Psychus.