This is Atoma. Hi Tzo haha =uwu=
I really think they shouldve made 2h Frost a secondary tank spec.
For two reasons…
Frosts AoE playstyle would feel really nice from a tanking perspective, and also it wouldnt have to compete with DW frost for viability.
Remorseless winter Tanking FDK is essentially the Arthas fantasy isnt it?
It’s only decent with 2h. But it’s absolutely awful with duelwield. I don’t want to be forced to use 2h just to play oblit and have it even be remotely viable. They honestly should never have given dk’s the choice again. It was removed for balancing reasons, and bringing it back just because we asked for it won’t do the spec any favors. People say we should trust blizz to do it right but has blizzard ever actually done anything right? Like look at their track record. Where is all this trust coming from?
Razorice isnt increasing Obliterate damage with KM rank 2 so there is that going on which will make it feel so much worse than 2h in terms of Obliterate damage. So DW is missing 15% on that ability even though it clearly should be working.
Where are people getting this from? I have heard a few people say this (on the forums), but never a reference.
And I am honestly glad you aren’t a class dev at Blizzard.
2H obliteration baby!
4 Likes
I feel like Breath will run into some issues simply due to soulbinds/conduits the Frost strike stacking str conduit does work with breath, the Obliterate increasing Frost strike doesnt work with breath dmg either and with secondary DR you cant build crazy Mastery stacks later on in the expac.
I actually prefer BoS to the other builds as they simply play like BoS when its on CD, but so far from testing Beta it seems to me BoS has conduits and secondary stat DR working against it.
but i can retest some bugs mentioned here like RI not working with KM Oblits, to see if thats still accurate.
Disclaimer: Tower of text, but not an attack. No idea why I wrote all this.
If you actually believe that, then why are you still funding their development team by paying for the game? If they don’t do anything right, then wouldn’t you want to play a game with a development team that acknowledges your feedback and acts on it? Obviously, each players’ likes and dislikes are unique to them, so nobody can tell you how you should be feeling about something. So if you have been consistently unhappy with the way development has progressed for the better part of a decade, then don’t you think it’s time to switch over to a company that works in your interests and not against them? Don’t you deserve better?
Players like me “trust” Blizzard because after a year of blasting the DK forums in support of 2H, other players having done so since the release of Legion, they actually brought it back and are currently allocating large amounts of time to implement it competitively by fixing the problems that ultimately incited them to remove it in the first place. As someone who is in the game development field myself, I can tell you that we’re not gods. We cannot just “make things work”. It takes trial and error, but we should never, ever do, is throw in the towel and quit because something was too tricky.
The implementation of the Obliterate concept is based on the singular focus of our resource generator, but without any accommodation for the resource spender, there is likely going to be a mechanical conflict somewhere, but there doesn’t have to be. That’s probably why so much time has been devoted to 2H.
The core problem with it was the DPS loss after running out of runes, because Frost Strike’s damage was too low to make up for it, and Runic Empowerment didn’t do squat with the two Frost Strikes you got from the Obliterates. That’s why I was suggesting before that 2H should have a range of Runic Power consumption from Frost Strike, that increases it’s damage per additional Runic Power spent. This would increase the proc rate of Runic Empowerment, and make Frost Strike more useful in mitigating the damage dip after Obliterate spamming make our Runes run out.
You say DK should have never gotten the choice back and that Blizzard removed 2H because they couldn’t balance the weapon specs - we don’t want them to “balance” the specs. We want 2H to hit extremely hard with Obliterate and not lose a tremendous amount of DPS during the intermission time where our Runes are recharging, whilst not stepping on dual-wield. The last part obviously not being a collective sentiment.
Now, don’t mistake my intentions here, I love you with all the Panda hugs you can get it one lifetime. It’s just, if you are uneasy about Frost DK’s functionality because 2H is being worked back into it, try not being able to use your preferred play-style for 5 years straight, for absolutely no reason other than “the wind blew at 5:03”. At that point, you might be able to understand the 2H players.
6 Likes
it was removed because of legion artifacts and min maxing raiders always playing dual wield. so they ruined the spec we had been playing for years and forced us to somehow forget how to use 2handers. the whole idea of spec based weapon restrictions is dumb and anti RPG, even more so since we had already had it from wrath to legion.
you have a horrible take btw
One of the main issues is that Blizzard does not always articulate their decision making very well.
Maybe i missed something?
But, they never really said if bringing 2H back was designed around the vision of each weapon having a different play style. Or, if the intention was for Frost to have multiple builds that were not weapon specific.
At this point it looks like they are pushing for 2H to be built around Obliteration with DW focused on Breath and/or greater Pillar up time. However, with the Razorice bug being reported this is all still questionable.
Point is, its awesome we got 2H back but do we actually understand whether Blizzard wants weapon specific builds or generic builds either weapon can use? This distinction is still a bit fuzzy.
They way I read the tea leaves is that they want weapon specific builds. Rational its probably easier to balance rather than trying to standardize resource generation and damage for every ability for two weapon load-outs. I personally like this approach as it means they can really focus on making each weapon type feel unique.
As much as I’d love for that to happen, blizzard’s typical balance style generally buffs or nerfs something to the extreme.
I’ll still hang on to some hope though. I’m still undecided on what I want to main for SL, and frost dk is pretty high on my list. I’ve tested plenty of both builds, and I definitely prefer the Obliteration playstyle, but I dont hate BoS. I would just hate to have to be forced into BoS in 9.2 once we get enough gear and stats to make breath the king again.
We still have two months. Who knows?
The other talents become better with other stats, breath is strong right away without stat scaling, you’re a little backwards on this again, and again breath isn’t even king right now on live Due to stat scaling.
Some people dont actually have to open their wallets to play the game. I havent paid for game time in a very long time and have gotten play time through wow tokens.
I just wish they would bake frostwhelp’s indignation into icecap.
1 Like
It looks like they went with feedback that is highly limited and extremely biased from people who hate DW and want to see it removed. Thats it. Is there actually a 2h playstyle? No, there never was. It was the normal spec playstyle while DW followed this masterfrost/mastersimple type of gameplay. Just go back and look at the guides. Masterfrost started in Cata but wasnt worth playing since it required absolute perfect play for a very small reward, so you stuck with the normal playstyle which Preach got rank 1 dps with while Dual Wielding and if you are going for rank 1 dps, you min max. So people who say “high end raiders can make anything work” if 2h was better at that time he would have used it, period.
Then look at MoP/WoD 2h stuck with the normal playstyle, dw playstyle was changed which removed part of the spec entirely. During this time, it was a complete mess. Not only do you have to balance both DW and 2h at the time against each other while using the same abilities, you had to balance it with other classes. People didnt even see a difference in Highmaul and Blackrock. Just looking at top 10, Frost on Kargath was 53-48k dps. If you look at all classes the top is 93k and the 10th spot was 78k. thats 30-40k behind when looking at the top players for these classes. Thats your best case scenario and its not like this is a 1 or 2 boss thing. Frost is steady at around 45k average dps using the top 10 rankings of the time. Im just giving them the best case scenario here as well and not digging through each and every class and spec. But its looking to be roughly half of what the top parses are. HALF. As a spec not even looking at weapons. Going into Blackrock there is hardly any change because the ilvl stayed the same. Its basically the same raid tier just released later.
Hellfire is the next ilvl jump where people were around the 740 ilvl instead of the 700ish of Highmaul and Blackrock. This tier however has some classes just being overwhelmingly dominant and you would have to do some digging to see just how far arcane was in front of everyone. But other classes were pushing into the top 10 (unholy being one of them) on several fights. I just dont feel like doing that much work. But Frost was still behind and this is the tier that DW shot out in front.
There was clearly something causing balance issues during WoD, and then the next expansion there was one option with a focus and Frost was in a pretty good spot, still is. So why repeat that time because some people want massive 2h obliterates when it wasnt even exclusive to 2h in the first place other than this era that was bad for frost. This is what people are worried about when you just throw a band aid on it. 2h might be good in the beginning. You cant go jumping for joy right now because 1 change to a covenant, one change to might, or obliterate and that whole castle comes down. People however didnt want it done where the weapon just doesnt matter and you can pick and choose what you wanted. They wanted a segregation of the weapons because they hate 2h, and if you were for the spec they just label you as anti-2h because your idea of how it should be done differs from theirs.
If people want other builds to be viable then dont focus on weapons. What about people that like breath but want to use a 2h? What about the people that like DW but want bigger obliterates like they were used to (a complains about DW in MoP/WoD which resulted in the change to howling blast and that damage put into rime killing masterfrost basically).
This was clearly a quick thing based on biased feedback and they are running out of time for any type of development and testing. Look at how much they still have to do before the launch. Tuning is still going to be going on when live hits.
With how Ion talked in preaches discussion with him, it looks like they just want you to pick something and stick with it. Why else are they being so limited in all of this? Why are they limiting covenants when they are SO broken. Some classes it doesnt matter what you pick because they are so bad. Others have one clear winner so even if you like Kyrian for something, Venthyr might just be hands down the best pick without even thinking about it.
They have already normalized the damage between the 2 weapon sets at a base level. The 2 big problems was the extra runeforge which is what might was supposed to address (says it in the patch notes), and then KM procs, which were increased for 2h. Then RA was tweaked to try to normalize it between weapon options. The question is, does Might actually address DW having an extra runeforge? No. If that was their goal the easiest solution would have been razorice becomes a 1h rune, Might provides 15% frost damage, or just becomes razorice for 2h “melee attacks apply razorice” and the accompanying talents that also apply it. There you go, fixed. They could have tuned Obliterate to be any damage amount and it wouldnt have mattered if you had DW or 2h. They could have added the 25% to Obliteration as a passive. They could have done so many other things to achieve what they wanted to address than what they did.
2 Likes
That certainly made it fun to press.
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I most definitely do not. It is pain to aim before using Pillar of Frost so hit as many pulled enemies as I can, while at the same time having to avoid hitting mobs in the distance and subsequently wiping the group.
You pay with your time regardless. If you use WoW tokens for subs, then you’re spending your time on the game keeping the market for WoW tokens alive, and considering they cost $20 instead of the normal $14.99 for the sub cost, your efforts ultimately generate bonus profits for Blizzard. If you’re here, and you have to choose to be, then Blizzard is making money off of you. Capitalism is a great thing.
1 Like
It does not take that much time to get 120k gold or whatever the value is at the time. I actually dont play that much since I work all day, and I still dont have to open my wallet. Someone else wants the gold, it even says it right in what you linked that it was a more secure way to acquire gold. Thats why there is an increased amount. They are getting gold, im getting game time. If someone wants to pay that extra 5 dollars for that gold its on them.
And yes, I can choose to pay that gold amount or not, to log on or not. But there is also time investment that you have to look at, addiction where some people are addicted yet dont like the direction blizzard is going. I mean why didnt you guys just walk away when 2h was removed? Why even come back on here saying it should be brought back? It goes both ways.
Historically though Blizzard has a very bad track record when it comes to implementing these systems and balancing. They are constantly being pushed to get something to a playable state than a finished state. Balance goes out the window, they put some pretty sparkles on the screen and then let it push to the next patch to fix stuff. Ion has already said that they have a way to open up covenants if its a problem… well… its a problem and it was called MONTHS ago. Open the system up, whats the downside to it? People get to choose what covenant ability they want while looking at the covenant choice to be a visual one? The classes got almost nothing, a bunch of time was wasted on elemental for it to just be reverted back to maelstrom, Frost has bugs that could have been found probably months ago but people just assumed stuff.
I am not losing anything by purchasing wow tokens, and the people that are paying for them for real money are going to buy that gold anyways. And you cant really give feedback of any type if you dont actually play in any way shape or form to try to make it into a game that you enjoy.
PVE or PVP?
why didnt you guys just walk away when 2h was removed?
Literally did, played DW DK for a awhile and then just gave up. Even unsubscribed stopped playing WoW for a number of expansions only coming back very briefly. However, I never stopped advocating for 2H Frost to make a return.
BFA played Warrior and Paladin but the moment 2H Frost was announced I dusted off the old DK but at this point I can’t be bothered doing much when Shadowlands is only weeks away.
5 Likes
just noticed on Beta the soulbind that gives 10% frost strike dmg after using Obliterate (stacking to 2) gives one stack with 2hnd and 2 stacks with DW since you technically have a main hand and off hand Obliterate.