I agree - but make it 10man of the M+ dungeons, not of the raids.
or of delves. 10man delves would be perfect.
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This is why we ask for separate achievements/lower drop amounts to accomodate 10mans, etc. and everything can be scaled to 1 shot if you mess up. Mounts are not needed. They can scale it. This isn’t an issue.
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At the end of the day, it’s about getting 10 ppl, and they would rather have BUFF representation than meta. there is less likely a need for “meta” in raids since they want buffs.
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That’s not even true. People stop and quit end of season and/or or on vacation. Stop trying to validate a bad raiding experience.
This is definitely a WE. Just search the coutntless people who say they want a 10 man raid on forums.
There are days when I miss true flex ratidng. then again there are days when I miss Wrath of the Lich King being the most current expansion
This is pretty dismissive of a problem that has existed since vanilla. Just because many groups are able to recruit doesn’t mean that failing to do so isn’t influenced by the environment.
One thing 10-man mythic would do instantly is help encourage more players in high-end PvE to tank. I’m not saying the only problem with the M+ tank shorting is the ratio of tank to raids in mythic raid, but it definitely is a problem. Effectively doubling the number of tanks required per player in mythic raid would give more players the opportunity to play the role in raid.
Sure, but with flex you could take a break during your team’s farm all the same. They could just farm with 19 instead of 20 that night (assuming you progged with 20).
But this also sidesteps what I suspect is the main issue Brewa is getting at, which is on progression. Being “let in” for farm is not the same as being on the main roster when progressing the boss to begin with. A lot of players raid for that progression while farm is just going through the motions. Fixed raiding requires some number of players to keep ready but expect to not be able to participate in progression; farm is better than nothing and might eventually lead to a progression slot, but it still sucks for many to be on the bench and for raid leaders to have to tell those players they can’t raid in the first place.
I see the same 5 people 4 of them im pretty sure the alts of the same guy. So again who is we?
Also end of season always is slower people are just raid logging its how all mmos go.
Yea raid buffs was a way to create diversity. Otherwise it would be who does the most damage/survivability just like in keys.
The saddest part is said player doesn’t show up and you actually clear with the rando. Weakest link identified.
In all seriousness, WoW Mythic raiding is too inaccessible for too many folks. Raid ID lockouts don’t help. 20 man doesn’t help. FF14 solved it to some degree. Not sure the Mythic raiders in WoW would like said solution.
That’s not what mythic is designed for. It’s designed for organized groups.
Not sure why this is such a hard concept.
Here’s the issue.
You have mythic guilds that don’t have recruiting problems.
Then you have heroic guilds that are trying to get into mythic. These are the guilds that primarily have roster issues. Established mythic guilds usually dont have roster boss issues.
You also have guilds that are “pretend mythic guilds.” What I mean by this is you have guilds that may get 5 or 6/8 this late in the tier that get their because they over gear it and have the threads buff not because they are actually a mythic quality guild. I ran into this when looking for a new guild this tier.
I joined a “mythic ce focused guild” that was no way organized at a ce level even though they claimed to be a ce guild. I’m talking questionable strats, no raid assignments, no interrupt assignments on Ovinax. They are currently 6/8. Guilds that brute force things like that late in the tier also have roster issues. Organized guilds versus unorganized guilds are night and day different.
Here’s the other issue.
When most people look to join a new guild they aren’t going to regress. When you spend 100 pulls learning a fight you usually aren’t going to go backwards and join a guild that’s less progressed.
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All of this is what I have come to understand is kinda the main point a lot of people don’t get. There are folks who are happy with just raiding Heroic or even Normal, heck in my guild there’s several folks who are extremely good at the game but just likes to be a doofus and have fun in Heroic raids.
That’s kinda the quintessential point of Normal and Heroic raids: a place you hang out and just have fun, the gear is good enough where you can participate in endgame content but aren’t necessarily pushing for the highest possible difficulty in the game.
Mythic raids are, from what I understand having watched and listened to Mythic raiders since Mists of Pandaria, relient on designed encounters. Not just “throw a bunch of people together haphazardly and kill a bunch of bosses”; that’s Normal and Heroic.
So for folks who try to bridge this kind of “We want to do the highest possible content, but do it kinda like as if we are a heroic raiding guild” is why some folks are having issues. Because Mythic raids are designed to push what people can do with their classes and what the developers can do for encounter design; it ain’t just for the players but also for the designers to actually do the D&D trope of “You step inside of a trapped room and you die.”
For folks not interested in that, you want Heroic or Normal raiding guilds. Because that’s what they are there for. If one want to get into the difficulty range where encounters are designed to be the “evil DM killing their players with lethal but relatively fair traps” … ya’ gotta accept that one ain’t going to have the easiest of times.
Guilds who still want to do that are likely the ones who kill some Mythic bosses and are happy with it, but don’t go further beyond that. Folks who want to go further beyond that are the ones you mention that get stuck on 6/8 even after the nerfs, the buffs to players, the overgearing, and so on.
Mythic raids are 20 people for a reason, and it likely should remain as such. At least judging by what folks who want to participate in Mythic raids as their form of endgame progression are saying.
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no, wtf is the limit lol
I really miss 10 man raids.
100%, I am not suggesting I have a solution to the problem. There definitely are guilds with no recruiting problems at all, as I was trying to convey in the second sentence. But that doesn’t mean recruiting isn’t a significant hurdle for all mythic raids to overcome, with many guilds unable to even meet that barrier before we even sniff how difficult killing the bosses once you are there.
My objection is with acting like because successful raiding guilds have no problem maintaining 20 raiders of the appropriate specs at all times that means any guild that does have trouble don’t have a legitimate gripe. The entire mythic raiding ecosystem is built as a win-more style of system. The roster boss alone is a significant gate for many newcomers to the scene, before we even begin to consider the difficulty of actually killing any of the hard bosses in the raid. Then there is additional strain created on the roster as players who build up solid logs in a guild start to seek greener pastures with more established players in the scene.
It’s fine if you think the roster challenges are perfectly acceptable due to it being the pinnacle of raiding content and/or it limits the number of guilds that would immediately flounder once they got there to a minimum. But you can hold that opinion without telling people who call out these challenges that they just need to git gud. There is some really degenerate and cutthroat behavior encouraged by the raid player limits in WoW.
You kinda missed the point I was trying to make.
The main roster complaint made is by heroic guilds trying to get into mythic.
These aren’t guilds dedicated to raiding mythic and are “just trying to see how far they get”
While nothing is wrong with that it’s hard to take a complaint about mythic raiding from a non mythic focused raiding guild. Jumping from heroic to mythic is a big leap when it comes to being organized. You can take almost any comp to heroic and be ok. The same can’t be said about mythic. Comp/buffs matter.
No one is telling people to “get gud” because of roster boss.
The issue is demanding 10 man mythic when it was removed for a reason. The majority of people asking for this don’t even raid mythic and don’t realize the issues this would cause.
TLDR guilds not focused on mythic are going to have issues when trying to get into mythic.
On top of that established mythic raiders aren’t going to join that type of guild. It’s not what they are looking for.
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What I was referring to here was specific to maintaining a healthy roster, so “get gud” at roster management.
I am not sure this is even true. Yes, the guilds that knock out heroic who decide to dip their toes into mythic waters are likely going to have struggles recruiting. While I would disagree this is healthy for the game and would love to see a flex mythic raiding option (even if it strips away the achievements), I don’t really want to get too caught around that axle in this discussion.
But I’ve had numerous raid mates and several RL friends attempt to join or start new-to-the-scene mythic raiding guilds experience massive recruitment problems. They were not just a jolly bunch of folks who knocked out AOTC in 3 months and decided to take a swing at mythic raiding. They genuinely dedicated themselves to becoming a successful mythic raiding roster and at least the folks I knew were quality players. But within 12 months those guilds were dead or reverted back to having AOTC aspirations and maybe half-PUGing a few mythic kills every season.
Now this is a small sample size for sure, and I’m honestly not sure what we should expect the rate of a new mythic guild succeeding should be. But it’s certainly a tough sell to folks who want to mythic raid when a new guild is trying to get off the ground. I suspect not many people want to sit the bench for the middle-of-the-road CE guild; how many would care to do so for a new guild with no track record?
2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS. 10 man raiding would perfectly compose 2 5 man groups for dungeons. As is, we have 2 tanks for every 20 in the current mythic setup, which means you need 2 DPS to be able to flex to tank, and Blizzard has not been terribly friendly about letting players perform to the utmost on multiple specs on a single character.
This proves my point though. Non established guilds or heroic guilds have the main issue.
You confirmed it here.
“Back to aotc aspirations”
Most ce level raiders aren’t going to risk joining a non established guild.
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Right, which brings us full circle to the point I was at least trying to highlight. Successful recruiting for mythic raiding comes down to more than simply being a good recruiter and having a roster of players dedicated to mythic raiding. That’s what I was trying to convey when saying it’s dismissive when someone talking about the challenges of recruiting is a them problem; in reality, it’s an uphill battle if you aren’t already established mythic raiding guild.
Having a good recruiter is the hardest part.
I can’t tell you how many recruiters from the recruitment discord don’t even read my posts.
I’m unavailable to raid Wednesdays due to shooting APA 9 Ball on Wednesdays.
I can’t tell you how many times I get a “hey we raid t/w/t” DMs.
The lack of effort some “recruiters” put into their opening messages are insane. I could share screenshots for days of messages showing what not to do.
I would say it’s half and half if anything. Recruitment is an art and as someone that’s been on both sides I have seen some very very poor attempts at recruitment which is a “git gud” issue.
If you’re looking for a new guild which are you more likely to respond too
Recruiter A: “hey guild xyz might be a good fit are you interested”
Or
Recruiter B: “. Hello my name is Supra, I’m a recruitment officer for ABCD guild. I saw your post on the recruitment discord/Warcraft logs. Our raid times are Tuesday/Thursday 9pm-12 am eastern time.
Our progress is x/y
We are currently progging boss z with this percentage/pulls
Here are our logs. Let me know if your interested”
Yes, but even guilds that have the embodiment of Recruiter B aren’t guaranteed to have successful recruiting. I don’t dispute that there are right and wrong ways to recruit and guilds wouldn’t benefit from figuring out those right ways.
I just don’t like the idea that, devoid of any context into that guild’s recruitment process, the response to someone articulating their struggles with maintaining a raid roster is to simply up their recruitment game. It wouldn’t hurt, but if the reason top players aren’t signing up is because they don’t have a pedigree, the best recruitment team on the planet isn’t going to fix the problem.
10 man mythic would restrict the dev’s ability to create mechanics (via not being able to assume you have access to every class), as well as killing a lot of current mythic raid guilds.