The devs, Blizzard.
@ Thread I see no issue with the most common addons players use for raiding. All they do is provide information that the stock UI does not.
The ones from 2004, or the ones doing Classic. Completely different groups.
I don’t think it’s possible to re-create raider IO in classic, at least not the way it is on retail. We don’t have achievements or a M+ leaderboard. What would you track to create the scores? Nobody will know if you’ve done the dungeon at all let alone how many times or how well you did.
It would have to be done manually, which means a score would have to be created by someone running an addon while you run a dungeon/raid and then upload the result to a third party site (common with raid logs but not dungeons). If you were mostly running dungeons with nobody running this addon you wouldn’t even appear on their site, which would make it unreliable and people would lose interest. It also seems like it’d be much easier to manipulate that data which would also make it unreliable and make people lose interest in it.
In addition, scarcity of options due to only being able to group with people from one server means that you’re less likely to be excluded when someone is trying to form a group and doesn’t have that many options to begin with. Unless you’re on some weird server that forms a cult-like clique where everyone checks some list and you happen to be blacklisted. Then you’ll have to re-roll I suppose!
The vanilla 2004 devs built MC in a week, and then got together for raid testing. They used community made dps meters because they worked and didn’t want to make their own. They got spanked by the first trash pack and have brought in high end raiders to test ever since
The ones from Vanilla. The API was public during the beta.
Ok, so KLH Threat Meter. Interesting bit of info.
I knew about the MC testing and deciding to use real players after that. Its a common failing some companies don’t learn from cough Niantic cough. Didn’t know about the mods.
That said, ultimately Vanilla was played with threat meters, debuff trackers, custom raid frames, and boss mods. There’s no reason to exclude them now because that would be less authentic.
This quote gives me confidence that Blizzard will manage the existing raid and UI mods appropriately, AND hopefully step in to stop IO and the like. Because not only did they learn that many mods are good and necessary, but they also learned that some mods are bad and not desireable.
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It was still required on the part of most raid guilds. Not that they could reliably tell if you were running some of them or not.
Ok anyone complaining about raider io is kinda bad since what it measures is your ability to do the content. If you can complete the content well you get a higher score, if you cant you get a lower score. It takes skill knowledge and gear into account…, also its only useful for pugging if you have a dedicated group its useless.
Gearscore while flawed essentially gave a way to boil down the come here for inspection to a single number, it was a tool that was useful but a lot of idiots dont know how to use it and so it got a bad rep.
Now in classic you cant just use ilvl because itemization is terrible, and there really isnt the same metrics to measure to create a score.
However there will be some addon that creates some value for people to compare when looking for pugs in classic, if you dont think that you are ignorant, because that is what players want.
As for damage/threat meters, damage meters give you no advantage, they are a tool you can use to help measure yourself that you can use to improve yourself.
Threat meters do give you an advantage because threat is terrible in Vanilla, and if there is no way to measure threat you really have no way of knowing where you are at compared to the tank so you either throttle your dps significantly or pull aggro every so often, because vanilla had a system which was poorly designed and had no way of actually telling you anything about it. Hence the creation of threat meters, they were in vanilla and will be in classic.
Blizz is not gonna break any of these addons and they shouldn’t.
The only thing they have hinted they MIGHT break are addons that try and replicate LFD/LFR.
All of your points are nothing more than subjective. My reasons for using a dps and threat meter are based on more than that. Stop acting like your opinion is the end all be all.
Dps and threat meters don’t give an advantage. That’s like saying a speedometer gives an advantage over another car that doesn’t have a speedometer. That’s ludicrous and faulty thinking at best.
It’s a tool that is used to see what does what and to gauge performance.
Same for threat meters.
There is nothing you can say that will win you this argument.
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This reminds me of the debate in Overwatch where people think adding a scoreboard would make the game more toxic.
All denying that info does, is make people blind and exploitable. The mage who afks half the run but does just enough to not be noticed deserves to be called out on his damage.
DPS meters are hardly a concern; if you think so, I’m going to assume you’re talking out your rear.
As a healer, seeing overheal is a very useful tool and helps improve your gameplay…it doesn’t do it for you.
I agree. Let’s all just close our eyes to make the game REALLY hard.
Just because Blizzard didn’t include it in the base game does NOT mean it’s a bad thing.
The biggest complaint I’ve seen against raider io is being excluded from a group based on a score.
That isn’t the case, the argument is that Raider IO is a PUG specific tool. I’ll use myself as an example, I know in legion that I can do M+10 just fine, the issue with this is that raider io bases your ‘skill’ on a timed metric that ultimately benefits those who run those mythics at the start of every week.
This is the issue here, player A: is looking for players to run X dungeon on mythic+10, player B: is capable, has the gear, the necessary skill and has done mythic+10, yet based on the score system alone player B is NOT accepted because of a low number despite being capable, having the gear and the necessary skill and on top of that has done M+10s before.
Gear score and raider io provide players a tool to stroke their already inflated egos and gives them the ability to talk crap about others who they feel is ultimately worse than they are.
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Yes but if you dont have a score that means you have not done the instance well… so that just means either the person has done the instance poorly or has never done it before. Either way thats a reason a number of people might wanna exclude someone because there are plenty of applications so you prob want to take the one you either have to teach or is just bad.
Agreed. I hope they keep add-ons like raider IO out of classic wow. they have the potential to really diminish the spirit of the game.
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How does player A know that he has the skill/gear to complete it?
Cause player B says so? Cause everyone is completely honest and accurate in self assessment of skill/capabilities…
If B is capable he should be able to put up or shut up, if he can he will get a score and now player A doesnt have to gamble there time/key on someones boasting.
the thing is pre bis before raiding was all spread out you could get some bis in maraudon, some in BRD, some in high level dungeons etc… so a gear score system would be useless
Sooner or later, someone’s going to make a similar addon, or an addon with similar functionality, and it will be used in much the same way. Wrath’s GearScore or GTFO legacy seems to be alive and well, unfortunately.
That having been said, I don’t have to like it, and I don’t have to use it. At some point, not having or using it will relegate me into the ranks of filthy casuals. All I can hope for is that I can find others who can deal with my quirks long enough to put some runs together. Through Wrath and Cata, the last times I was really active, that was my friends and my guild. I expect it’ll be much the same here.
As an aside, I “beat” GS back then by farming the old tier 0 gear- valor for my DK, beaststalker obviously for my hunter, etc- and leaving them equipped anytime I was in a major city. In classic, I’m not sure anyone will get the joke, so I think I’ll be collecting and enchanting several sets of Twill.
That might be. But I am not sure all the people in a raid, find it funny when you keep wiping because someone crept above the threat-meter. Even with threat-meter you can get threat because of “unlucky” crit rows. There are 39 other people in a raid, and every wipe is also their time, not just yours. I for one, find it fine if a guild demands you have a threat addon.´
If you can find 40-50 persons who share the same view, then fine, have a go at it. I’ll just not sign up for it. ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
That doesn’t mean it cant be done just means it needs to be more complex. I am confident someone will make one, how useful it is depends on how they build it and how accurate it is.
When raider io was big in legion, mythic raiders who wanted to do 5 mans on m+ had low raider io scores because raider io only tracks mythic+ scores. You have those kinds of players, those who don’t do M+ every week or at the start of the week, or those who previously did higher ranked M+s before ultimately quitting or they stop doing m+ after a while.
Raider io does not hold or store previous scores, thusly raider io is toxic for anyone who isn’t going out of their way to get high scores as frankly its a pointless endeavor to please the elitist jerks, who themselves likely suck and were carried both far more capable players.
Remember the whole debacle about obscenely high and unnecessary ilvl requirements in legion? Yeah it’s in the same boat as that.
Edit: Its a tool that people use to further the toxicity that already exists in game.
Edit2: Wrath reference here - “LFM 6k gearscore for normal icc”
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