In what way?
I dont know, its like this crappy neo-luddite fantasy. Flagg is a lame antichrist, the whole journey to reach an old blind woman is meh, The characters arent that relateable.
Im generally not all that big on apocalypse literature outside of the actual apocryphal texts that inspired them, and even then, its more about dissecting the cultures that spawned those texts than it is about the narrative or lack thereof. That said, the overly evangelical Left Behind novels tell a better apocalypse story in many instances than The Stand.
I found most of the characters relatable, it has been quite a while since I read it. And I generally like post-apocalyptic stuff. Figuring out recreating society. I think Flagg fits fine.
I do tend to find some King stuff a bit eh. I tried The Dark Tower series and just found it too meandering.
But you know, to each their own. I’ve heard ok things of Left Behind but never gave it a short. Seemed pretty long too.
It is intentionally meant as evangelism, and targetted at a similar audience as the Drizzt novels. I didnt hate them when my Grandmother convinced me to read them as a kid, but I wouldnt say they are good. They similarly rely on biblical prophecy, but where they do better than Stephen King is by just unapologetically telling a biblical apocalypse fantasy, inspired by protestant interpretations of Revelation, Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah and Ezekiel. The Stand tries to be too loosely connected to the prophecy while coming across as completely derivative, and at the same time rambling, slow, uneventful, hard to read and disappointing to finish.
Blizzard has shown that energies are present everywhere, because again, if you look at the cosmological chart, it shows that all these cosmic forces flow into one another an big captilized words equilaterally spaced out showing opposing fundamental properties of the universe like Life/Death, Order/Disorder, Light/Shadow. The Twisting Nether-suffused with all energies, most notably Disorder/Fel, the Shadowlands, teeming with Death/Necromancy, etc are said to touch all worlds and transcend all realities. The elements are described as the basic building blocks of the universe.
And when asked, the Devs have pointed out which forces are associated with what properties. When asked about the nature of mind control and emotions, they specifically and exclusively called out the forces of Holy/Light and Void/Shadow and how manipulating them manipulates emotions.
Devs even go on to explain how Fel and Arcane and Order and Disorder are just opposite sides of something existing on the same spectrum. Something also reflected in the cosmology chart, which again, shows all these various forces flowing into one another and with Azeroth as the center.
Azeroth is a result of the confluences of these various forces and their interactions and ebb and flow shape the world.
Your response: “Nuh uh.”
Yes, you are arguing a negative, as you have no actual evidence to back up anything you’ve actually claimed; like how Fel and Void are somehow less critical to Azeroth and life as we know it compared to Nature and Light, but because you have no actual quotes or text or anything to back it up. Or your claim that the only way Fel, despite existing as a fundamental force of the universe tied to the principle Disorder, is only good for spawning demons.
All without actually citing any alternative our counter-examples that support your point, but merely picking apart others’ and totally ignoring what they do say.
If I asked the Devs about what’s going on under Orgrimmar right now and they said, “Well it has a lot to do with Me’dan…,” and there’s a map of Orgrimmar with Me’dan position underneath Orgrimmar, and Chronicles cited Me’dan as having a home underneath Orgimmar, and the franchise having a recurring plot point of people living under cities- yeah. That’s all strong evidence.
Again, if I asked the Devs what the deal is with ghosts and they said that there’s lots of ghosts and they’re intangible and there was a big cosmological chart with “Ghosts” shown enveloping everything, right next to the word “Spooky”, and the Chronicles book stated that Ghosts transcend and touch all realities/worlds, and has a recurring plot point of characters channeling ghost powers to save the world, then yeah. That’s all strong evidence as well.
And the person actually questioning the claim actually has to show the flaws in the original claim. Point out where the statements contradict one another. Or even provide an alternative interpretation and support that with evidence.
Not just state, “Well it could be something different,” without any clarification. “There could be cheeseburgers underneath Orgrimmar.” or “We could destroy all the Ghosts and it would have no actual consequences,” or “Ghosts are less important to the universe than Spiders” and not provide one single reference or quote or anything.
Oh yeah, he wrote plenty of stinkers. Nobody writes as much as he does and doesn’t write stinkers. Pound for pound though, he’s got tons of enjoyable and classic material out there. Especially when compared to Tolkien- who is pretty much only known for the Hobbit and LotR trilogy. And to a lesser extent, the Silmarillion, but nobody reads that for it’s entertaining prose/narrative as much as they do out of interest in lore and continuity.
Film adaptations are a whole other matter and are rarely reflective of the quality of the source material. I enjoyed Tolkein’s Hobbit more than LotR in book form, but when it comes to the Peter Jackson films, I’m the complete opposite. I don’t care for any other of the film adaptations. Enjoyed the IT movies more than the books or miniseries. The less said about the Dark Tower film compared to the books, the better. So on and so forth.
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Sure, what if we judged Alexandre Dumas by the film adaptation of Count of Monte Cristo?
This doesn’t say that, no. The chart is not even close to evidence or even suggesting all energies are everywhere. You are making a wide interpretation off an image that’s incorrect.
Not associated in the way you are claiming.
That’s an incredibly dishonest characterization.
There’s nothing else I can say besides your evidence isn’t that what you say. It just isn’t.
I could say, ‘The Chronicle says the Titans are made of cheese’. You would be justified in saying, ‘no, it doesn’t say that’.
You say the image says all energies are present everywhere. It doesn’t.
Because the entire disagreement rests on your misunderstanding of the actual relevant information.
I have. The problem is if you keep interpreting the chart in a way it doesn’t say, you’ll keep getting wrong conclusions.
I pointed out all these places without these energies. But if you can’t accept you are reading the chart in a way it isn’t meant, you’ll keep assuming you have it right.
That is not the equivalent. That is your core misunderstanding. The chart isn’t saying all energies are literally everywhere. They’re showing them in a general circle around the universe. That’s not implying omnipresence. In the same way the Old Gods being on that ring doesn’t mean Old Gods are literally physically everywhere. Or Naaru. Or fire.
Numerous things on that chart circling Azeroth are not omnipresent.
And their description of the association is not the same.
I have. But if you refuse to accept you’re misreading something, that’s on you.
I pointed out we see lots of places without these energies around.
I’ve pointed out the chart isn’t saying all energies are everywhere.
Hence there’s nothing more for me to counter. There’s no evidence actually backing your claim when the claim is fundamentally built on a wrong interpretation.
I’ve referenced all the areas like that. But until you accept you are interpreting the chart wrong, there’s nothing else to say.
Your entire claim falls apart without your misunderstanding of the chart.
If all these energies aren’t everywhere, we have countless examples of areas that function fine without said energies.
The chart at least shows, through a motif that resembles the oroboros imagery in oribos, that the realms are interconnected.
And he came back to be a Draeboo Light-infused boob and his wife is the polar opposite that he allows because feelings come before virtue I guess.
Torch him. I’m already tired of him. This is why you be careful with how you reintroduce characters that haven’t been relevant for over a decade. What they decided to do with them might be really really dumb.
While you have a point, the Old Gods didn’t give the Curse/Gift of Flesh for our benefit, they gave it for their own benefit.
The assumption that Yrel was forcibly converted lacks evidence. Yrel didn’t betray AU Grom, and he was still an unpunished war criminal, they quite a legitimate past grievance with the Mag’har - the Iron Horde. Yrel’s Lightbound don’t fight among themselves or enjoy causing pain to others, more than can be said for the Old Gods or their forces.
Forcibly Lightforging one elf is a far cry from multiple planetary genocides. Xe’ra had also existed for uncountable millennia before that and helped the Draenei survivors flee Argus - or are you unwilling to acknowledge that Xe’ra has done altruistic things?
It does say it. Again, we can look at the chart.
We are told in Chronicles that the interaction between Light and Void created all these other forces and the resulting universe and Azeroth and they’re all shown in the cosmological chart, along with big capitalized words like Life/Death/Light/Shadow/Order/Chaos as interconnected with one another and Azeroth lies directly in the middle. The Twisting Nether, which contains all these energies, is said to transcend all time/space and pervade the cosmos in Chronicles. I’ve already linked the twitter post where a Dev explains that Fel/Arcane and Disorcer/Order are just different’ ends of a spectrum.
If Chronicles stated that the world was formed from cosmic forces generating Cheese and the Titans rose from the Cheese and we had a cosmological chart that said CHEESE right next to the Titans and connecting it with all the other forces and if, in an interview about the nature of Cheese, a Dev explains how Titans bring about Cheese.
Repeating something doesn’t make me pedantic. Being pedantic is looking at all this and picking it apart with, “Okay, but they don’t literally say exactly this specific thing, therefore, you’re wrong.”
Although me having to explain what entails being pedantic is, admittedly, me actually being pedantic 
The Old Gods/Naaru/Demons/Titans are quite specifically not connected by various blending lines in the same way the cosmic forces are. They have indeed shaped the universe, but utilize the aforementioned cosmic forces of the universe to do it.
Fire, coincidentally, isn’t one of them. It, along with water, earth, and air is described in Chronnicles page as a basic building blocks of all matter in the universe.
But cited no quotes or any evidence that they aren’t around- which you demanded of me. I gave the cosmological chart and description of the universe that suggests these forces are omnipresent. You denied that, but in support of your own claim you’ve actually provided nothing.
And yet, you make such claims like Life without Nature would be “weird” while Disorder without Fel just means no Demon. With no actual quotes. You just point at the fact that Nat Pagle and Elwyn forest aren’t outwardly demonic- but it’s you who claims Fel begins/ends at demons to begin with.
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We don’t know under what circumstances Xe’ra converted Yrel. But we’ve seen that Xe’ra is not above forcibly converting people if she wants i.e. Illidan. She seems to be relying more on utilizing peoples’ faith and existing grievances.
If the Xe’ra/Yrel/Lightbound’s grievance began and ended with the Iron Horde, then their campaign would’ve stopped at the Iron Horde. The Frostwolves, Laughing Skulls, and many other Mag’har Orc Clans weren’t members of the Iron Horde though. They even fought against the Iron Horde, yet they’re targets all the same. In fact, the campaign on Draenor has gone on so long that Yrel is now waging it against an entirely new generation that was too young at the time to have even been part of the Iron Horde. Yet they are targets all the same.
Yrel refers to Grommash as “her old friend” as she also explains how she killed him. Apparently being her friend doesn’t mean anything if you don’t support her willingness to use force to convert your people into Lightbound.
Xe’ra has done alturistic things. I can totally accept that. I also accept that she has done terrible things that need to be stopped and is likely to do so again in the future.
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No it doesn’t. Lines = \ = being omnipresent. That’s flat out untrue.
None of which supports omnipresent energies.
Which doesn’t support omnipresence of energies.
Again, the equivalent here would be ‘that picture of Argus looks like cheese’. Because you’re saying ‘these lines look like I think these energies are omnipresent’. I’m not denying these energies exist. I’m not denying they relate to the universe. I’m contesting how you think they relate based on a picture.
I didn’t call you pedantic? Did I?
They’re literally touching the lines and in the same bubbles as the energies.
Yet they circle Azeroth, which seems to be your entire conclusion for omnipresence.
All these forces, creatures, and Elements circle Azeroth. They all touch lines. You not only want to say baselessly that means they’re omnipresent, but special plead this only applies to one thing.
The fact they clearly visibly are not and that there’s no evidence suggesting they are. That’s massive evidence.
It doesn’t suggest that.
Because absent your misinformation, there’s no reason to believe otherwise. If there’s no proof they’re omnipresent, the defacto assumption is they aren’t omnipresent.
Because outside contrary evidence, that’s the world as is. Again, you are the one claiming they are omnipresent. If they aren’t omnipresent, we clearly see all these locations like that as examples for my case.
As a rule, a fade to black is never a good indicator for Character Death in WoW. So if Yrel does have the ability to forcibly convert like Xe’ra was implied to have, then is possible we might see a Lightbound AU Grom at some point. Perhaps even a AU Lantressor. Who knows?
I know Xe’ra would probably be willing to forcibly Lightforge Yrel, but there’s no reason Yrel would have to refuse it.
As far as I know, the only Mag’har clans who didn’t join the Iron Horde were the Laughing Skulls and the Frostwolves. Plus it wasn’t all an entirely new generation who wasn’t part of the Iron Horde; AU Grommash himself was still alive and leading the Mag’har, and who’s to say he was the only one? Some of the Lightbound NPCs even say “The time of Grommash is past. Embrace a new future!”
Yrel saying Grommash was once a friend bugged me, I can think of no in-universe reason why they’d become friends (I chalk it up to bad writing attempting to demonize Yrel’s group and whitewash the Mag’har).
I just realized a problem; MU characters and AU character’s aren’t the same people. AU Xe’ra isn’t responsible for imprisoning Alleria or trying to forcibly Lightforge Illidan, and MU Xe’ra isn’t responsible for what happened on AU Draeneor.
Fair enough. I’ve provided all the sources and examples I could about how I came to my conclusion. Hopefully, the Broker’s cosmological model that we’re supposed to see in patch 9.1 will shed further light.
I’m inclined to think that along with their more generalized South Asian influence, that their cosmology is likely to include a model that better reflects a reality composed of the constant interaction of ever-present forces in an eternal balance, but we’ll see.
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Grommash was likely her friend because a full 30 years before the events we see, he too turned against the Iron Horde and helped end them. In the following decades, he’d changed and their relationship improved. Well, before Xe’ra showed up. But yes, showing that Yrel was willing to kill a friend was absolutely done to show that she is dangerous and those who oppose her do not receive mercy. Not even her friends.
Also, it was more than just the Frostwolves and Laughing Skulls who refused. The Iron Horde was composed of members from 7 of Draenor’s dozens of other Mag’har clans, many of whom don’t even get touched on. Even among those 7 clans, the decision to ally with the Iron Horde wasn’t universal, and many only joined after killing/exiling those who disagreed. The Shadowmoon Exiles- Shadowmoon Orcs who didn’t join the Iron Horde and escaped being wiped out- are one we explore. And it’s been 30 years since the Iron Horde dissolved, so we’re looking at an entire generation or two of adult orcs that couldn’t have possibly been members. They’re all being targeted for conversion.
If they really want to preserve Yrel as a hero, they’ll very likely to go with the “she was brainwashed all along” explanation. Otherwise, they’re going to address the fact that she’s acting with free will when she decided that the solution to saving the world is to conquered/wipe out other races of Draenor. Or when she approved of the use of mind control/threat of death. Or when she was willing to kill people she calls her friends.
And since we’ve seen multiple instances of Xe’ra across universe who aren’t opposed to forcing changes on people to further her goal, they’ve clearly given Yrel an out in that regard. That, or they’ll pull a Grommash and have her eventually decide the Lightbound Crusade has gone too far and turn against them and Xe’ra.
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AU Grom didn’t turn against the Iron Horde, they turned against him for Gul’dan. He also didn’t aid us due to moral qualms or his conscience, he aided us because they were a threat to him too.
We don’t know how long they were friends or why it ended, so your assumptions are as valid as mine (not very). Citation needed that the majority of clans didn’t join the Iron Horde. Where were these dozens of clans when the Frostwolves and Laughing Skulls went against the Iron Horde?
While there is a new generation, the fact remains some of the old members still exist and have rallied behind the former leader of the Iron Horde (who surprisingly was never punished for his crimes until his big showdown with Yrel).
There’s no evidence of mind control being involved; that’s nothing more than popular fan theory. We’ve only seen at most two versions of Xe’ra at most; MU Xe’ra and AU Xe’ra (if we assume this Light Mother is AU Xe’ra). The Draenei have valid reasons to be sore with the Orcs even without this shoehorned “dogmatism” arc.
In light of this, might I say that, maybe, villain batting Yrel and the Light was, perhaps, not a good idea for the story?