Well you’re begging the question. The point was ‘are they the sole source of x, y, z’. Being a force doesn’t uniquely convey that trait. Hence why it doesn’t interfere with the analogy.
How we see Nature and Fel at play in the universe. I said before, these forces do not interplay with normal life in the same way. This is readily observable.
Life without nature would be barren.
Disorder without fel would mean less demons.
Well no. They aren’t equivalent to life as we know it.
Don’t change the goalpost. You claimed they were the source then gave lore stating something far different.
I just said last post that I wasn’t insisting that. You literally quoted me saying it.
I can’t continue a line of questioning if you refuse to acknowledge my stated stance. I’m not going to give evidence for something I’m not claiming.
This is what I said.
Solely from out of world perspective storytelling view, yeah. But that’s never been my contention, it was about in-universe.
There’s nothing else ever brought up when referring to the sources of those emotions. Those cosmic forces that comprise the eistence of the universe were specifically brought up by a developer when discussing the nature of emtions.
If you were talking to a Dev about the world and asked a question about mind control/emotions and they start going on about very specific cosmic forces and their relationship with those emotions, then no, it’s not some random leap of logic to see one is tied to the other.
Disorder is to Fel as Life is to Nature. If you’re suggesting that we can’t just remove Nature without consequential changes, then so it goes that Fel is important as well. It occupies a corresponding part of the chart.
As of yet, we haven’t actually seen any place where there’s been complete and total lack of influence of Disorder/Fel, in order to say the only difference is fewer demons or that things wouldn’t otherwise be weird.
I’m not moving goalposts. I’ve shown where Blizzard makes the deliberate and distinct associations between Fel and Disorder. At your request. Devs stated the tie between Void and those emotions and mentioned nothing else.
Your response is that this does not disprove that other they can’t exist perfectly fine independently because you think they can exist separately. But you don’t provide any actual in-universe/lore examples that this is true. You say examples exist, but have not cited any.
You also go on to claim that other cosmic forces are needed on a level greater than Fel/Void, and that Fel/Void is superfluous. But again, provide no actual in-universe examples.
You state that the only thing that would result in the complete removal of Fel influence from the universe is the disappearance of Demons. Again, you have no example in-universe of this being the case.
Pointing out your double standard when it comes to what claims do/don’t require quotes and page references is not moving goal posts. You take it as a given that Fel/Void is useless at best and harmful at worst and require evidence that it serves any cosmic utility, but when it’s shown, you question whether that utility is unique to Fel/Void without providing any other possibilities.
My apologies. I’ll admit I’m still confused about your insitace that Fel is an expression of Disorder as we know it- while insisting that we can get rid of Fel and still have Disorder as we know it.
Especially how you don’t extend this reasoning to any of the other cosmic forces.
I don’t think it is a random leap. But I still think it is a big leap. To think that just being said to cause an emotion when used makes you think they are the source of all such emotions.
The thing is that the chart does not represent their equal influence in life as we know it. So no, removing one would not have an equal effect on life as we know it.
And what do you mean we haven’t seen a place without fel? Do you think there’s fel literally everywhere? That Elwynn Forest and Telogrus Rift both have fel?
My issue is the phrasing. There’s a difference between an ASSOCIATION, a RELATIONSHIP, and something being the SOURCE of something. I didn’t ask you to prove a CANON RELATIONSHIP between these things. I asked you to prove these things are the SOURCE of said emotions. So when you say you’ve shown a CANON RELATIONSHIP you are pivoting from your prior claim that they are the SOURCE which is what I took issue with.
First, I don’t think your stance is about disproving anything. I don’t think you’ve even proved your initial claim.
I did give examples. But I didn’t think I needed to be especially specific because it is a point that exists on so many levels. But I’ll give you specific ones.
Elwynn forest lacks fel. Yet we see a degree of disorder present there.
Telogrus Rift lacks fel. Yet we see a degree of disorder present there.
Yet life can exist without nature. This might be in the form of Titanforged or Aqir. Yet obviously this life and how they would subsist without nature is much more different than life as we know it.
And at best I think fel is redundant. It has uses.
I extend the reasoning the same to all of them per the above. The difference is that they all have different impacts on life as we know it. Removing Nature versus removing Fel has different impacts on life as we know it. Again, we can see places like Elywnn fine without fel. But if they lacked nature, it’d be much more different.
To quote the Black Empire entry on Wowpedia; “The Old Gods constantly fought against each other, through infinite armies that clashed in ceaseless battle.” After checking, the lore doesn’t state which race/species were being sacrificed, but the Old Gods and their creations weren’t the only race on Azeroth at the time (the Elementals, if nothing else, were also there… and enslaved by the Old Gods plus were conscripted into those infinite wars).
I don’t know what the Light will do with no foes to fight, but so far the fact that the Light doesn’t even come close to matching the Void’s laundry list of atrocities debunks those fans who claim they’re as bad as each other (eg; forcefulness with Alleria and Illidan vs making the Emerald Nightmare, the Naga, corrupting Deathwing, the Drust… Xe’ra was a sweetheart compared to N’zoth).
While you make some good points, there’s a couple of things I must point out. The vy’kul humans, gnomes, dwarves being made what they are by the Curse of Flesh isn’t the Old Gods helping us, it was an unintended side-effect because the intention behind the Curse of Flesh was to make them easier to corrupt (hence the term “Curse of Flesh”).
Mass conversion isn’t wrong in and of itself, the problem is forced conversion. Assuming AU Xe’ra is the one leading the “Lightbound”, for their few but major flaws, at least her followers aren’t sadistic and don’t backstab each unlike N’Zoth’s followers.
Yrel got handed the villain bat in BFA, a Naaru got handed a villain bat in Legion… they are all going to join forces with Turalyon, and create a Lightbound Alliance, joined by the Scarlet Crusaders who have come out of hiding…
They will be worse, by taking over Stormwind in our absence, and converting or killing its own citizens to bolster the Lightbound’s ranks… we will end up having to fight against them all, Lothraxion included, in a Siege of Stormwind raid… Alleria may even be forced to kill Turalyon, and possibly Arator as well, assuming she hasn’t joined them and instead chose to side with the Void Elves in resistance… nobody is immune, not even a pally bubble can avert such a fate…
“The Golden One claims a vacant throne… The Crown of Light shall bring only darkness…” -Il’gynoth
Well they never mentioned any other fundamental creation sources and their relationship with said emotions or a relationship between such forces and such emotions. Whatever relationship other factors have, it’s not worth bringing up in the context of fundamental cosmic forces.
Yes. These people and places all have some Fel in them, just as they have Nature, Arcane, Light, Void.
You take it as a given that Elwynn forest, Telgorus Rift and Nat Pagle lack Fel. Why? Because they’re not glowing bright green and crawling with demons?
By that logic, they’re all totally lacking in Nature/Light/Arcane/Death because nothing’s glowing some color and the place isn’t crawling with Botani/Naaru/Elementals/Souls. Similarly, the Telogrus Rift, should be a place devoid of any other force outside of Void, yet it’s capable of supporting life.
Just because something has even the slightest bit of exposure to X energy doesn’t mean it suddenly starts growing colors, starts spawning monsters and becomes instant recognizable as that thing. Just like not everything touched by the Light is bright white with glowing white eyes and not everything touched by nature is a walking/talking plant, and not everything touched by the arcane is glowing blue and covered in runes. Fel, like all those other forces, is one of the fundamental building blocks of the cosmos and a natural result of the interactions of these forces.
What you’re identifying as the mere existences of Fel/Void is actually the IMBALANCE. A situation where there’s too much Fel/Void. Just like we’ve seen what happens when people/worlds gets overrun with much Void (Telogrus Rift) or Nature (Draenor’s) or or Fire (Firelands) or Death (Shadowlands) into their system: they become fundamentally different and often alien entities. But they’re still not separate from the rest of creation and the forces that compose it. The fundamental forces of Light/Nature/Void/Etc still reach and impart some influence on all these places to some amount.
If it’s that terminology that’s the major source of disagreement, I’ll try to clear it up.
The relationship/associations between Light/Void and emotions are stated to be such that if they didn’t work as described, Azeroth as we know it would not be the same place. The relationship between Fel and the fundamental property of Disorder is such that if Fel were completely eliminated, it’d result in a corresponding change in how Disorder works as we know it. This is because these, and all the other cosmic forces as described in the Cosmology, are fundamental forces of the universe. The universe was made from the interaction of Light/Void creating Order/Disorder, Life/Death, Elements, etc and their associated energy sources. They are part of a holistic whole because all of the universe as we know is predicated on their existence and they balance one another out and without any one of these cosmic forces, the universe and its functions would be fundamentally altered.
And while it may seem like a good thing, WoW has a repeated theme that such cosmic imbalances are not for our benefit. “Good” things aren’t always good in excess and even “bad” things aren’t always bad in moderation.
Or to use another analogy, the body is mostly water. It doesn’t look like it’s mostly water. In fact, if you start pumping water into the lungs, you die. But you also can’t remove all the water from body and still have what’s a human. And the same can be said of calcium, iron, phosphorus, and sulphur.
Indeed, it was not the Old Gods intent to help mortals. It was part of their goal to simply spread the touch of the Void. But without those efforts, these and many other races would not exist. And they continue to exist, carrying on that continued touch of the Void. You can’t truly eliminate Void influence in the universe without at some point going after those races and turning them into something not Vrykul/Human/Dwarf/Gnome/etc.
AU Xe’ra did engage in forced conversion. Yrel, her champion and a Lightbound, did betray and kill her friend. She and her forces continue to conquer/kill/convert those they once peacefully shared the world with. MU Xe’ra also engaged in forced conversion. Her first and only act once revived was to try and forcibly convert Illidan.
Because nothing has proven they exist there. The default is something doesn’t exist until proven. I’ve not seen a source that says all energies are literally everywhere.
Again, you think that just because something has a touch of Fel, it instantly starts glowing bright green and sprouts horns. Just like how not everything touched Arcane/Void/Light/Death starts glowing and sprouting runes/tentacles/wings/whatever death entities have.
I can argue that Elwynn Forest is completely devoid of any influence from any force, hence they’re all useless/redundant.
I guess you’re assuming it’s Nature because there’s “forest” in the name and there’s trees there, but it’s not tied to Nature MAGIC. There’s no Wild Gods or Dryads or nature spirits there. It’s not even all that overgrown or teeming with life compared to a place that’s REALLY full of Nature energies like Draenor and its Botani. It’s got no more self evident ‘nature’ than the Elemental plane of Water or the Twilight Highlands or Felwood.
It is if you look at the cosmological chart, which gives equal and corresponding positions to all the fundamental forces and read the paragraphs of Chronicles I linked, wherein it explains how the universe as we know it did not exist until it was formed from the interaction of the Light/Void and all the other fundamental forces it spawned.
No, it doesn’t make sense if you ignore that and consider the universe just a thing that would exist either way and the Light/Void/Fel/Arcane/Death but somehow not Nature, to all be aberrations/deviations. Also that the cosmological chart is suggesting these forces to to be unequal, despite having forces in direct opposition with one another and with equal prominence. Cosmological charts aren’t just about the words found therein, but also–just as importantly–how the words are arranged.
I think we need evidence of something existing to say it exists.
No, it doesn’t have to be visible. It just has to be proven somehow. You know, with lore.
I’m not just going to assume something with no evidence.
Do you think fel exists in real life? You think just because you can’t see it or prove it, it isn’t there? Actually, that’s pretty reasonable.
I’ve addressed this before.
Something creating something doesn’t mean life as we know it is dependant on it. A parent creates a child, but said child eventually can/is independent of it.
I don’t think I called these aberrations…
TO LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.
You keep misunderstanding this point.
The chart doesn’t represent their importance to life as we know it. Just their position in the universe at large.
Can’t wait to kill Turalyon and loot his sword. Its time that the alliance starts losing their fancy stuff after blizzard forced the Horde through the meat grinder multiple times.
Again, the people who created the game have already stated the link between these things. Not in the context of our real world, in which Light and Void as cosmic principles exist, but in the context of WoW, where they very much do exist and are explicitly stated to be fundamental principles that make up the universe, continue to exist within the universe and are tied to such concepts as sapient emotions in a way that no other cosmic principles are.
This would be true if the Light/Void were simply described as creating the rest of the universe. However, it’s stated that it’s the interaction of the Light/Void that makes these things possible and they continue to be a force that acts upon the universe.
I see your parent to child comparison. And again, this treats the universe and its collective forces as discrete parts.
But it’s a more cohesive whole. Fel and Disorder/Arcane and Order, Light and Holy/Void and Shadow, Life and Nature/Death and Necromancy do not all exist as discrete and separate things. They exist on the same spectrum, but merely at opposite ends. It’s a Yin-Yang kind of thing.
Comparing the energies of the cosmos to parents and their offspring acting as distinct and autonomous beings is where the analogy falls flat. It’s more like a family, which is defined not merely by the interaction, but the presence of the parents and children. Take away one of the parents or children and yes, you still have a family, but the whole dynamic changes.
You treat them as much. You think that without the existence of Nature as an expression of the cosmic force of Life, that things would get screwy–even barren–but the only consequence you see of a world without Fel/Void as cosmic expressions of Disorder and Shadow is a few less monsters, but everything looks and operates fundamentally the same.
You’ve gone beyond just questioning the utility of any of the fundamental properties. You started claiming that some are more a requirement than others, and deemed others largely incidental to existence. And for all this, you have presented no actual evidence, while constantly asking me for my own evidence.
Which have provided- citing the descriptions we’ve been given about the formation of the cosmos in Chronicle, comments made by developers about the importance/interrelationships of different functions of the universe to specific Cosmic forces, and Chronicle’s description of the creation of everything we know arising from the interactions of these cosmic principles.
And it all works perfectly within the context of the themes Warcraft has constantly featured about cosmic balance, the dangers of extremism and how some things that seem good/bad aren’t necessarily so depending on context or moderation.
The chart shows how all these forces interact in relation to Azeroth, which is life as we know it. The forces occupy corresponding and equal positions on the chart, embodying fundamental properties like Disorder/Order, Shadow/Light, and their associated types of energy, all of which can be found in Azeroth to various degrees.
Blizzard has not said all energies are present everywhere, no.
Not in the way you are trying to claim.
That’s the description. Their clash birthed the physical universe.
That depends largely on the specifics of the family. The universe in this example is an adult now.
I’ve given evidence several times. We see lots of places without these energies. Your retort is that they’re there without evidence. This is dishonest rhetoric.
In what way are they claiming they’re related, then? And why only bring them up if all cosmic forces, or no cosmic forces have a unique relationship to specific emotions?
The Light and Void didn’t just spawn the universe and go away to let it do it’s own thing. they continue to exist as opposite ends of the same spectrum, continue to courses through the universe and cotinue to empowers entities such as the Void Lords, Old Gods and Naaru who have also shaped the universe/Azeroth while also continuing to influence emotions.
The cosmology chart shows these forces intersecting with and flowing into one another, clearly displaying their actively interrelated nature in order to make up the universe, with reality, and Azeroth, at the center.
What evidence? Your only ‘evidence’ has been the claim that Nat Pagle, Elwynn Forest and the Telogors Rift don’t have any influence of Fel in them because based solely on the fact they aren’t glowing green, sprouting horns and associated with demons.
But you haven’t actually cited anything. No quotes from Chronicles or Devs. No text from any actual in game sources. You haven’t actually cited anything supporting any of your statements.
I’m confused. I though we were talking about all this in how it relates to the fictional of Azeroth as described in the fictional Warcraft franchise. In what context are you referring to it?
Where have they not said it? Everywhere… Every source doesn’t say these energies are literally everywhere.
They can cause them, not that they’re the source.
To describe any relationship.
But they aren’t omnipresent like you claim.
Not in the way you are claiming, no.
You’re being dishonest again.
You’re making the positive claim.
You have to prove fel exists everywhere.
Lack of evidence of fel is the only way I can show a negative.
Do you really not understand how burden of proof and proving a negative works?
That’s because it is a NEGATIVE.
Can you prove Me’dan isn’t actually under Orgrimmar right now? There’s nothing to cite but there’s also no proof he’s there, so the default is that it isn’t the case.
Can you prove there are millions of invisible ghosts around? What, just because you can’t see, touch, or test for them? Because there’s literally no proof?
These are bare basic discussion things. Someone making a positive claim has the burden for their assertion (these energies are literally everywhere in this case). Until proven, the default is that we wouldn’t believe something that isn’t proven.
Ugh… Steven King is highly overrated IMO. Reading The Stand is miserable. Watching any screen adaptation of that heavy-handed childish nonsense is not rcommended to be attempted sober and should only be approached with the seriousness of a MST3K episode.
But the Old Gods dont call it “The Curse of Flesh” they call it “The Gift of Flesh”. Furthermore, every time we defeat a Titan aligned beingwho does not have the curse of flesh, they have an existential crisis, as though they are discovering that what they had been taught is a lie
General Bjarngrim, for example, “How can it be? Flesh is not… stronger!”
Edit: I realize this is a Conan reference, but it can also be a clue to the fallability of Titan doctrine.
