I want to see some Turalyon and Velen interactions. Turalyon could learn a lot from him.
Azeroth-and all the other worlds amenable to what we recognize as mortal life- are made up from the influences and interactions of all the fundamental forces. You can’t have too much Void/Arcane/Elemental/Death/Whatever, but you have to have some in order to have life as we recognize it.
If we go by AU Draenor, then Xe’ra doesn’t believe that. She doesn’t just want to just stop at the Legion and doesn’t stop at the Legion. She’s uniting the Draenor by using its most Light-friendly inhabitants to convert/destroy most everyone else that’s not the Light. Her ultimate goal is a world/universe where the Light is the only cosmic force at play.
There was no Legion or Fel users left on Draenor when she was doing her crusade with Yrel. Her targets were the Orcs that either fought against the Legion or were born after the whole conflict. Her crusade also targeted the Ogres and the Aarakoa and the Saberon and the Botani- none of which ever served the Fel.
So if she makes her to way Azeroth, where there’s no Legion anymore, and decides she wants to target the Horde in general (they are the biggest obstacle to said goal on the planet), it’s only going to be a matter of time before she turns her attention to targets that aren’t Horde. Up to and including Alliance races that aren’t exactly down with being followers of the Light or under the sway of other cosmic forces: Night Elves, Worgen, Dark Iron Dwarves, Void Elves, Demon Hunters, Death Knights, Warlocks, Shamans, etc.
I don’t think Void or Fel are necessary.
Void is the source of sadness, fear, uncertainty, caution, allows the ability to see multiple possible futures simultaneously, etc. Without enough Void, you cannot have the full suite of human emotions or even basic survival instincts. People would be more inclined to martyr themselves; utterly convinced of the assuredness of their belief in a singular vision.
And to be fair, there was a point where Azeroth was ruled by the Old Gods, the Void was dominant and the Light had very little-to-no influence. The world existed. People and cities existed. It wasn’t the end of the world. It just wasn’t a world that we’d recognize.
Similarly, too much Fel is bad (for what we recognize as life), but the fundamental forces of entropy an destruction are necessary to a functioning world at some level. And again, the Legion shows that even in places where the Fel is dominant, people and life can continue… just not under conditions we’d recognize.
Afterall, the Legion’s chief motivation was preventing the rest of the universe from being corrupted by the Void.
Where’s the source that you can’t feel these emotions without Void?
Decay and Death are entropy. Fel as an extraplanar power isn’t necessary for life.
They’re of the void, in the same way that the Light brings hope, courage, comfort, etc conviction. Which isn’t to say that only Priests/Paladins are capable of such things.
The whole idea is that Azeroth is a mixture of these (and other cosmic forces) that aren’t seen in in other realms completely dominated by a singular force.
Death is not synonymous with destruction and entropy/chaos. Fel is. It’s a fundamental cosmic force that interacts with other forces to form the universe in general and Azeroth in particular.
And even beyond the cosmological/philosophical stuff, is really going to be practical to start purging Warlock/Demon Hunter characters from the game on the grounds that they’re no longer needed and the universe would be better off with less Fel?
So no source?
Light and Void can cause someone to feel certain emotions. That doesn’t mean they are the source. Eating a cheeseburger can make someone happy, but cheeseburgers are not the source of happiness in the universe.
Probably because that’s not what I said. I said decay and death are entropy. I didn’t mention destruction.
But fel isn’t the only cause of chaos and destruction. It isn’t necessary for it. If you had a place without fel, stuff would still break. You would still have disorder. Fel is a representation of chaos, it is not the sole cause of it.
Probably. They’re a small group of pariahs.
If you mean source as in a reference to this in lore? There’s this developer explaining it.
If by “source” you mean there’s nothing that explicitly says that “Without the Light/Void, these emotions don’t exist. They are the source of these things,” then no. No such statement exists. Not just for the Void/Fel but on the necessity of any cosmological force as a requirement for any specific something existing in the universe.
I mentioned destruction because destruction is important alongside entropy/disorder, and both are unique qualities of the Fel in the cosmology that are necessary at a fundamental level for life as we know it to exist on Azeroth. Entropy is a move from order towards disorder -explcitly Fel- and destruction is a necessary part of the function of life as we know it on Azeroth.
I don’t know if you’re being facetious or serious.
Because we’re talking about a narrative in which players of 2 of the most popular classes are explicitly told their characters are useless/should not exist and have absolutely nothing of value to add to the world. And that they have no justification for their existence as a class in the world. That’s a very bad design decision.
That’s what I thought. You are misinterpreting it per my cheeseburger metaphor.
Cool. That’s what I thought. Which is what this rests on.
Again, you have not backed that claim with lore.
Destruction and disorder are good to an extent. You have not sourced Fel as specifically necessary for that.
Well you said practical, sounded like you meant in-universe. Obviously classes won’t be removed from players without a reboot.
Clearly you’re not a proper Burg connoisseur
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I don’t think I am, as burgers are not described as being fundamental forces at work in the cosmos or ever uniquely called out as a source of happiness in order to compare contrast with things that bring sadness.
Whereas the Light/Void is explicitly called out as being cosmic forces associated with those emotions in a way that the other cosmic forces are not.
The WoW cosmological chart sources Fel as synonymous with Disorder.
The description of the world’s creation states that the universe as we know it didn’t begin to even form until we had interactions between Light, Void, whose interaction formed the Twisting Nether, among other things.
Page 10 of Chronicle…
If the existence and interaction of of all these cosmic forces comprises the universe as we know it, then that’s the same thing as saying that the universe as we know it depends on the existence and interaction of these cosmic forces.
The argument that we can do without Fel and still have Disorder is no different than the claim that we could eliminate Nature and still have Life, to say nothing of plants and animals and ecosystems. Or eliminate Arcane and still have Order to say nothing of logic and reasoning. From your line of reasoning, because no cosmological force is outright described necessary for anything, they’re all something we could do without.
At which point there’s no reason to single out Fel or Void.
I meant practical in the sense of actually executing said narrative in game which is why I referred to Demon Hunter and Warlock characters. I’m getting into what’s practical from a game design/narrative perspective as opposed to in universe philosophizing.
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The only difference is that the forces are forces and the burger is a burger.
You could easily describe a burger as a cause of joy and juxtaposition it against a cockroach. This doesn’t make either necessary sources.
Exactly, associated. Not that these things can’t exist without it around. Those are very different.
The words of The Chronicles say Fel is manifested disorder. Not that fel is the only way disorder is expressed. Or that there’s no disorder if fel isn’t there.
Something coming about at the same time as something doesn’t mean it depends upon its existence. Even the something originally creating something doesn’t make its existence necessarily depends upon said creating force.
The difference is that you pointed out life as we know it. The existence of how life would sustain without any of those forces is far different than what it would be like without just those two. Because these forces are not of equivalent impact in the world. Life without nature would be weird.
I read characters as NPC’s. Obviously making players feel objectively useless is not the best idea.
Well, considering Azeroth ruled by the Old Gods was the Black Empire; industrial-scale mass sacrifices, sadistic insect and tentacle people rampaging across the world and the Old Gods waging intercontinental proxy wars against each other for fun… if I had to make a choice, I’d take the Lightbound over that any day.
If Blizzard’s trying to push the narrative that extreme Light is as bad as extreme Void, they’re failing since even the worst of the Light is still far better/less bad than the worst of the Void (The Prime Naaru Xe’ra was a cuddly sweetheart compared to Yogg’Saron or N’Zoth).
The Legion’s chief motivation was actually Sargeras goal; most of the demons even up to Archimonde and Kil’jaeden were in the Burning Legion either to sate their selfish desires or because the alternative was getting killed by Sargeras.
So the problem is Xe’ra - if it is her - will go too far? I think I see what you’re getting at.
Thousand.
I’m kind of not sure where you are getting a lot of this. They weren’t Proxy Wars, they were just straight up wars against the Old Gods. Any sacrifices that were being made were among the Old God’s forces themselves, comprised of races created from the Old Gods directly. The Black Empire was a time where all there was was Void, so it innumerable different visions of the Truth clashing against one another for supremacy. Its not as though there were races independent of the Old Gods during that period, everything within those conflicts were spawned from them as far as we know.
Xe’Ra was a nearly dead Prime Naaru who’s focus was on combating the Fel. The Light combating other Cosmological Forces is not in question here; they all act differently when combating the others. Its what Light and the more Fanatic True Visions are capable of when left to its own devices, like it was on AU Draenor, that we are discussing here. What will it do when it has time to only focus on its own ideological dogma? What will it do when the more extreme visionaries of it have time to fixate on their true path? That is the topic we’re discussing here with the fall of the Legion.
The only difference being the fact that ones’s a cosmic force and one’s a cheeseburger is a massive difference.
The universe is not a result of the interaction between cheeseburger and cockroach. There are not immortal beings imbued with cheeseburger/cockroach energy. There are not cheeseburger/cockroach wielders or philosophies or religions devoted to cheeseburger/cockroach. When asked about the nature of mind control and emotions, a writer did not cite cheeseburger and cockroach -and those things only- as the cosmic forces tied to those emotions.
That’s why the analogy doesn’t fly. You’re trying to compare fundamental cosmic forces of the setting’s universe to random objects and acting like they’re just as trivial.
Well this comes back to why I kept saying the Universe/Azeroth/Life as we know it.
Because yes, sure, a certain amount of Life, Disorder, Death, Order, etc could continue even with other cosmic forces dominant/recessive. It’d be very “weird” though and not something we’d consider the same as how things currently work. Essentially, you’d be rewriting the nature of Azeroth/Universe.
so in that sense, yes, they’re all superfluous. So no need to single out Void/Fel. Like you just pointed out in your example, we don’t need Nature either.
Also, you also keep insisting that while Fel is an expressio of Disorder, that other forces can be expressions Disorder without any relation to Fel. Where is the lore evidence of that? We’ve shown the lore evidence that Disorder is tied to Fel.
Well if the game were to honestly designate any amount of Fel as superfluous/harmful to cosmic balance and go about eliminating all Fel users, it’d naturally have to impact player characters’ Warlocks and Demon Hunters as well. To make them the exception to the rule just points out that Fel does have some value and utility to a certain degree.
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It’s worth remembering that the Old Gods also brought the curse of flesh, that allowed for the birth of Dwarves, Gnomes, Vrykul and by extension, Humans. So yeah, a world full of Void is not something we as current Azerothians want, but without any Void influence, we wouldn’t have the world we have now either.
It’s not that all powers are evil. It’s that powers need to maintain a certain level of balance.
Chronicles tells us what the world was like when it just Light. It was nothing like Azeroth. There weren’t any demons or wars, but there also weren’t any forests or trees or cities or villages or families. It was the existence of the Void and its interactions with the Light that started the beginnings of the universe and further interactions of other cosmic forces that shaped it to being what it was.
Yes. She’s already going too far in Draenor: industrial scale slaughter and mass conversion, Lightbound converts running intercontinental proxy wars against the other inhabitants of Draenor for the Light. She’s just being motivated by single minded righteousness. And her subjects are prettier than bug people.
She also went to far in Legion, when the first thing she did upon waking up was trying to forcibly convert Illidan.
It’s not that all powers are evil. It’s that powers need to maintain a certain level of balance.
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Not to the point that matters for the discussion. That neither is necessary for their effects to otherwise exist. None of the differences you mention change that. That’s why the analogy is fine. The point is demonstrated.
It wouldn’t be very weird without Fel or Void.
Not what I was saying.
I said Disorder can exist without Fel. Not that other forces are expressions of Disorder.
If there was no Fel, everything wouldn’t suddenly be 100% ordered. We have places where that’s the case.
Except like I said, viewing it entirely in-universe, players aren’t really an aspect for consideration.
How are the Light/Void being cosmic forces necessary to the functioning of the universe as we know not relevant to a discussion about the role cosmic forces play in the functions of the universe as we know it?
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On the cosmological chart, Fel is to Disorder as Nature is Life. You’ve already admitted that Life without nature-while it could exist- would be weird, but refuse to acknowledge that Disorder without Fel would be weird. On what evidence do you make the claim that Nature is so much more critical than Fel?
So either they’re both useless things the universe could go without and see no changes, or they’re both necessary to the functioning of the WoW universe a we know it.
Similarly, despite asking me repeatedly to give examples where the lore shows a canon relationship between Fel and Disorder and Void and given emotions (which I provided) you haven’t provided any Blizzard statements citing these phenomena as being tied to any other fundamental cosmic force like you insist they are.
Well then that just leaves them as an example of how the Fel isn’t totally terrible and cannot be wholly removed from reality. Because you can’t have a story in game in which we destroy all Fel or render it somehow inert and still have playable Warlocks and Demon Hunters as heroic characters doing anything for the greater good.
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