Hey cheer up. Kael’thas and Vol’jin might return. This is good news for the Horde.
Zandalar gave us a long list of new characters who I think are pretty cool. Just look at Talanji and the Zanchuli council. They are pretty Chad.
If it wasn’t for Saurfangs Rebellion Sylvaans would have destroyed the Alliance at Orgrimmar. Their army was depleted by that point.
Oh the Alliance power fantasy does exist. It is called Bfa. Nothing but wins for the alliance everywhere. I say we need parity and give the Horde some long needed victories in return. Fair is fair.
I’ll put what I said in simpler terms.
I am perfectly fine with the Alliance getting some massive long overdue hits in, and just absolutely wailing on the Horde. They deserve it, that’s fine. Its just that that can’t be all that story is. If the Horde is meant to be placed in such a situation, then on our side it needs to be used as an opportunity to both stress test and develop our immensely underdeveloped cast of characters. Its a good environment for it.
Yet, for some reason, many Alliance posters seem to take massive issue with this second point. And I have no idea why, since it seems to be a fair compromise. Unless they’ve maybe deluded themselves into believing that the Horde got some sort of massive power fantasy in MoP and BfA? And demand what they believe to be the same? Without the whole “constantly being shamed as weak villains” part?
EDIT: As for Talaamon. C’mon man. The guy was barely a character and effortlessly bodied a WC3 Legacy Character, our new Darkspear Racial Leader, and our Top Shadow Hunter … while he had help. Like, even if that whole suicide distraction was dumb, a barely named Lightbound just destroyed our main Darkspear. Not sure I’m feeling the “win” there any more than you’re feeling the win at Lordaeron.
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Look, at this point I get that you’re the equivelant of a Sylvie stan for Yrel. But don’t pretend you don’t get why Geya’rah remaining on the “Loyalist” side makes more sense than her joining the rebels.
She swore and oath to Sylvanas, her Warchief. Which culturally she takes very seriously. She and her people arrived on Azeroth after Teld, during the war, and she has no real context on that event. And above all, she has never met (nor knows) either Saurfang or Thrall. And thus they would not be a reason for her to betray her Oath; or endanger her people who are so dependent on the Horde (as their literal ONLY lifeline). Given her and the AU Mag’har’s situation, it makes absolutely zero sense for her have sided with the Rebels (unless she was operating off meta knowledge). Which, frankly, the Horde PC was partially required to do to side with Saurfang (as early as we had to to get that ending).
In essence, you are desperate to ignore the messaging in the Sermon of the High Exarch while constantly making excuses for why its OK that Yrel’s crusade extended beyond the prior Iron Horde (30 years late). While using that same Iron Horde to justify why same crusade is OK. At the same time, you are desperate to use a single comment from Geya’rah to shackle her with the sins of the Iron Horde. Which, in her case, aren’t even “Sins of the Father” … but outright “Sins of the Race”. Which, hey, I suppose Blizz has written that Race is analogous to Morality at this point. A company once lauded for subverting classic fantasy tropes of Evil Race/Good Race, has instead fully embraced it and then some.
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Well recently Alliance experienced getting wailed on early in BFA. At that time we had no idea which direction the story was heading.
How did you find the Horde roflstomping the NEs? Was that power fantasy?
Nope. Because we weren’t allowed a motive to smash the NEs. We were constantly told the ENTIRE Horde is weaker than the just the NEs, and we couldn’t have hoped to win that battle if both Tyrande and Malf had been on the field; or if 90 percent of their actual military weren’t gone. And we were constantly shamed for it … both during the event, and for going 2+ years later. We also didn’t win a single battle after the one Blizz clearly decided we had to win to be labelled the villain for the entire expac and beyond.
It was absolutely not a power fantasy. Nor something we were supposed to take any enjoyment out of (and I’d wager the majority of Horde players never cared enough about Teld to take any enjoyment in burning it).
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Oh dear. That was not a power fantasy. By a long shot. The full force of the Horder struggled to breach the night elves defenses even with their army gone. Tyrande and Malfurion alone are enough to hold off the entrie Horde advance because they are just that powerful. If Blizzard really cared to cater the Horde a power fantasy, then we would have won the battle for Darkshore and turned all of Kalimdor into Horde turf. But that didn’t happen.
Alliance won
the battle for Darkshore
the battle for Stromgarde
the battle for Lordaeron
and the battle for Dazar’alor.
Alliance had a massive winning streak this expansion.
Something the Horde can only dream of ever getting.,
Because Blizzard hates the Horde and loves the Alliance. These are the facts.
The way you describe War of Thorns I doubt anyone would accept a power fantasy even if Blizzard give them one.
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Geya’rah still stuck with Sylvanas despite seeing Sylvanas do something similar to what she claimed Yrel did.
While you have a point she has no attachement to the Burning of Teldrassil, I was talking about Sylvanas’ attempted enslavement of Derek Proudmoore and what she did to Baine and Thomas in response. Baine told all the Horde leaders what Sylvanas was doing, but Geya’rah’s all “Nah, she’s a strong Warchief.”
It kind of makes sense for Yrel’s crusade to extend beyond the end of the Iron Horde when the former leader of the Iron Horde is walking around scot-free. No need to go “sins of the father” when the original war criminal is still alive and kicking.
Also, while this person gets a few things wrong, check out this detailed summary of the Mag’har recruitment scenario; Just finished the mag’har scenario, the draenei lightbound orcs did nothing wrong - Community / General Discussion - World of Warcraft Forums (blizzard.com)
Do you think the Light destroyed AU Draenor rather than the aggressive industrialization and deforestation the Mag’har were doing for 30 years, or the huge amount of fel energy pumped into Taanan Jungle, or - most likely - the simple degradation of an alternate timeline.
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I describe the War of Thornes the literal way Blizz portrayed it for the Horde side. We are literally told the ENTIRE HORDE combined could never hope to beat just the NEs if either: A) Both Tyrande and Malfurion were on the field at the same time; or B) 90 percent of their army weren’t away. The Horde literally struggles, and is ground to halt multiple times, against just Malfurion and a Civilian Police force. How in any way is that a power fantasy? Even if we barely managed to eek out a “win”.
EDIT: And your response alone does at least imply why the “If the Alliance is allowed to just absolutely body the Horde for a while (without the villain bat and shaming), then the Horde should be allowed the character development it desperately needs for its current Roster” is so negatively received by some Alliance players, because they’ve deluded themselves into believing what they want is what the Horde got in BfA (and MoP).
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So just because Blizzard gave some vague description to save the NE military for later use in the story or at the very least give the NE players some consolation and flattery words so they don’t get depressed or something that nullified the entire power fantasy of the Horde army marching through Alliance lands and burning a capital down?
I get not wanting to become a villain but thats not what you were complaining about. You were complaining about Alliance not having too much power fantasy.
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Yrel still considered Grommash a friend so I don’t think the Lightbound were acting out of any sense of retaliation or delayed vengeance.
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No … I said “have at that power fantasy, I’m glad to give you that chance … so long as you also allow such an environment to be an opportunity to develop our absurdly underdeveloped cast and council. Which is something we desperately need”. And you seem REALLY opposed to such a compromise.
And again, the Horde was never given a motive (let alone a valid one) to attack the Alliance or burn Teld. Nor were we given even the means, (as again, even in game, JUST Malf and an NE Civilian Police force are enough to grind us to a halt twice). The opportunity was also super forced. And unless you’re one of those minority horde players that does revel in being a villain … there was no joy to take from Teld for the Horde. It wasn’t a victory, its a symbol of constant shame for almost 3 years (even from the writers themselves).
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It may surprise you to learn I agree that the Horde is getting a raw deal in writing and with a lot of your complaints about the story direction. Our disagreement seems to be between me saying the AU Mag’har/Draenei situation isn’t simply “Mag’har good ol’ Orcs, Draenei big bad fanatics” and you on the opposite site.
The only thing that made sense with the Burning of Teldrassil to me was to establish that yes, Sylvanas is evil and a villain (she burned Teldrassil after winning the War of Thorns - Delaryn even technically surrendered to Sylvanas and Sylvanas still destroyed that city).
I’m fine with Alliance getting the turn at being the baddies, just not with Turalyon or a “muh fanaticism” arc.
That’s an extremely narrow criteria. And I could argue after Teldrassil Alliance got more development with Jaina and Horde got Saurfang, zappy boy and a cast of other minor characters further developed.
So really Blizzard did what you asked but you just didn’t like it.
Alliance will eventually overpower us and attack us. Lets attack them first before they get that chance.
That was the motive.
So… to answer my question a simple positive description about the NEs fighting power was indeed enough to shatter your big victory and power fantasy.
You realize none of that mattered in the long run right?
And they say Night Elf posters are hard to please.
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I never suggested that the Mag’har were wholly good, I’m arguing that “The Sermon of the High Exarch” (the only window into the LIghtbound’s ideology and perspective atm) merely supports what Geya’rah has told us about them at this point. As does the fact that Yrel’s crusade extended to not just prior Iron Horde members, but also to every race and group on Draenor (as far as we can tell). As her goal was a “unified by the Light” world. She also even mentions that she desires for that unity and order to spread beyond it. And that doesn’t even get into that 30 years “stay of execution”, which is a problem on its own.
Frankly, it sounds like she’s been Ner’zhul’d. Just like AU Grommash was by Garrosh. And if that’s the case, I just hope she’s treated better than Ner’zhul himself when she finally figures that out; despite what she’s done. Because I also do recognize that the MU Draenei cast could really use some padding, with Velen being their only real character, and if she realizes that (probably) a Prime Naaru is playing her hard here … she would be a reasonable addition (in the right circumstances). Just as a post Light Tortured Grom (by his once victims) could be a good addition to pad out the AU Mag’har’s pathetic cast.
yes. And I can proof it. When the Naaru appears and lazers down Beastwatch all nearby water sourcs poof to dust. We can see the power the light uses to turn the place into wasteland first hand. However we have no sources that would show the same thing with whatever you accuse the Mag’har of doing.
They stopped using fel after Gul’dan was gone.
There is no prove from the recruitment scenario that the Mag’har were doing that.
Yep. Another alliance zealot crap talking the Horde because he hates the fact that Draenei, for the first time ever, are written in an pov where they might be in the wrong. Pathetic attempt of trying to switch the guilt around.
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A united, organized, peaceful world. OH THE HORROR!
The correlation between Geya’rah’s words and that Sermon of the High Exarch is tenuous at best… and that’s assuming both are reliable sources of information. Though I agree the Draenei and Mag’har could use a bigger cast of characters.
It is literally written by Yrel herself. How much more proof do you need?
They had a good cast of characters with the Warlords. But WoD killed them all off. The recruitment scenario took what was left of them with Grommash and Durotan. Once again Orcs aren’t allowed to have anything nice.
You remember the vision Alleria had of the light? Entire worlds turned to crystal? I think what we see with the Lightbound here is exactly that. Light and Void are in a crusade in the entire cosmos. And none of them are our friends. The mortal worlds are just caught in the crossfire between them.
After re-watching a playthrough of that scenario, all I saw was a naaru encasing Orcs in crystallized Light, not drying up water or killing plants.
There’s far more evidence of other sources doing damage. We see Talador is smaller and the Mag’har have lumber mills set up there. There’s still a huge pool of Fel magic in Taanan Jungle even if there’s not new Fel energy being added to it. Looks like proof to me. Also, I never considered the AU Draenei part of the Alliance itself, just allies.