I guess if you only consider the Horde’s existence to be justified if there is an omnipresent Alliance threat then this would be true. Is that what you think the Horde is?
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I’d compare us to chimpanzees; they’re more vicious than gorillas.
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I mean, I’ve done plenty of that
No you don’t… you always complain. It’s like you’re just repeating yourself when it’s not even applicable half the time.
I got you to admit you literally generalize Alliance players, and even repeat LINES Droite. Purity test, moral absolutism, whitewash, all these things you repeat to nauseam. I’m not saying that to personally attack you, because you do this crap.
If I was supposed to expect Turalyon to attack the Horde, then he should have done it in full defiance of Anduin, like the Alliance would want him to do, instead of needing Anduin’s sky blue gaze to not be on him while he makes big boy decisions. That’s it. If he Anduin has to entirely advocate for the Horde, atleast let the Alliance’s characters do something against him my god.
No, I mean in a two faction game it is functionally impossible to not compare the two factions. And so long as the Alliance remains this monopolistic force on virtue and morality, its very hard for the Horde to escape from being compared to that. Especially in this post-BfA environment, where Blizz has kind of made it so the only way a member of a Horde race can be “good” is by being as submissive and convenient for an Alliance one as possible. I mean, my god, just look at Baine. He’s literally been turned into Disney’s Pocahontas to Anduin’s John Smith. The guy is probably going to spend all of SLs sitting on his butt pining for Anduin. His only value as a character is in relation to that relationship with the High King of the Alliance right now. Even though he’s High Chieften of the Tauren. Its really bizarre.
At the end of the day though, I think the only real way to rebuild the Horde in a meaningful way … is to let us get away from the Alliance for a good while. And it would be a good thing for the Alliance to have some internal reflection time without the Horde as well. There are plenty of local and racial stories that can be told on both sides with how ragged Blizz has run this world, and on those smaller scales “maybe” the Horde can be rebuilt in a positive way. But in these grand meta-narratives, the best we can expect over the last 10 years or so is kind of just being a tagalong. At worst, we’re the villains of those stories.
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Indulge me, but why is this a problem?
I agree the Horde has been getting the short end of the stick for villain-batting, and I wouldn’t be against it happening to the Alliance.
There’s several ways that can go; Genn with his revenge fixation (maybe Tyrande too, but I like Tyrande), Magni going extremist and trying to purge the Horde as a threat to the unborn titan Azeroth, maybe even a mechagnome giving Mekkatorque the cybermen treatment.
Because there is no avenue for the Horde member to prove they are good not in relation to an Alliance one. The Alliance character themselves have become that basis for morality. And I get you of all people on here probably wont find an issue in that, but it is problematic if you are a Horde player. As again, it means that the litmus test for “goodness” and “virtue” … is the Alliance itself.
EDIT: There are also some underlying thematic issues with that sort of settup, but lets just say that Tolkein would be ashamed of it and leave it at that.
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I wouldn’t even mind Turalyon being an antagonist, I just hope they don’t go the fanaticism route because of personal objection and it’d be lazy nonsensical writing in his case.
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If it’s been like this for ten years, idk why you’re expecting anything different. I push back on the notion you’re ever saying you enjoy something about this story.
But, I hope you do enjoy something about it after all this you’ve said in this thread.
What’s wrong with advocating that the Horde improve its behavior, rather than have the Alliance worsen theirs? The Horde improved its behavior drastically in Warcraft 3 since Warcraft 2 and it didn’t require that the Alliance sink to their level (Garithos and Daelin notwithstanding, both of whom got killed quickly anyway)
Is it because the Horde improving its behavior necessarily means that it behaves less antagonistically towards the Alliance? Why would that be a problem?
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I don’t recall saying I enjoyed much of the story. There are small things. I’m generally enjoying Maldraxxus. I feel pretty well treated in BfA as a Gob fan with how things went down; even if I feel horrible as a Horde fan. I’m more surprised you keep bringing up “enjoyment” though? I get that you are enjoying how things have been going, but outside of you perhaps believing I should revel in the irritating antics of Sylvie and Nate (or caring about burning down a tree I couldn’t care less about) … I’m not certain what you’re saying I should enjoy? At least from the Horde narrative? Especially in BfA?
I’ll tell you what. By your own tongue, I’m willing to bet you enjoyed Sylvanas having a wankfest for the Horde so much you would compare it to how much I love Anduin making sure there’s nothing any Alliance character can remotely do, and might as well not even think rude thoughts about the Horde. So by that estimation. I’m sure you’re Sylvanas’ biggest fan, even more then Nathanos.
Because her crusade is extending beyond just the Orcish people, or even the races that were a part of the Iron Horde. Even if you ignore the 30 year stay of execution on reprisal, the moment her “Light Unity” idea moved beyond her oppressors (which, at bare minimum, her book does outright state) … is the moment she became a dangerous fanatic. Also, Yrel has also actually acted upon her ideologies. Geya’rah, hasn’t done a damned thing in service of her words. And her clinging to her people’s only lifeline in the Horde (and not betraying it for two orcs she’s never met) … does make some sense.
Once Rah has actually taken action upon her words, then we’ll talk. Until then she doesn’t even have “sins of the father” blame on her yet. Plus, I’d wager her issues could be alleviated by “simply meeting the MU Draenei (especially Velen) and allowing her to realize that they aren’t the same”. She has been shown she is capable of learning and adapting. Several times, despite her limited screen time and development so far.
Agree 100%. I would very much enjoy belonging to the ‘antagonist’ faction and have a turn at being the side that goes rampaging across enemy territory. What I most object to is this desire for Turalyon to be either a useful idiot for some cosmic power or to be a second Garithos.
Alliance heroes have every reason in the world to fight the Horde, they don’t need to be ruined to make it happen.
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And Horde characters aren’t allowed reasons at all to fight the Alliance, but Blizz ruins them to force them to do it anyway. Sigh…
I am more than happy to nuke Silvermoon into oblivion to give you guys that reason to fight.
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You’re trying to make the Horde angry with the Alliance, not eternally grateful to the Alliance.
Imagine if Blizz gave the Horde a reason to do something about Genn in Stormheim. I wonder how crazy the revenge could get!
Just as the Iron Horde extended beyond the Orcs’s oppressors the Gorian and the Arakkoa. And before you say visions, Yrel got visions too according to the book you keep citing.
That book leaves out a lot, as I and others have already said. To play devil’s advocate, don’t you think Yrel mentioning the Iron Horde would put a bad taste in Draenei’s mouths about working with Orcs, Light followers or not? Besides, being someone who actually goes to church, I know most actual sermons are longer than that book.
Geya’rah hasn’t done anything… other than fall into lockstep with Sylvanas, a character whose atrocities surpass anything Yrel has been seen doing AND turn a blind eye to Sylvanas doing something she cited as reason for hating the Lightbound… only to get some contrived “Sylvanas was selfish, I won’t serve her” story moment after Sylvanas kills Saurfang and abdicates from being Warchief.
The only way she’ll interact with MU Draenei is on the battlefield or through POW situations either way. If she meets Velen, I’d love to see her reaction to Velen bringing up the Iron Horde (and hope he would do that).
The quote-mining is to give you a taste of your own medicine and because the rest of your comment is about things already discussed between us elsewhere.
Why are you worried on something that has never happened?
After the events BoD which many here would argue resulted in an outright Alliance victory resulted in one faction leader going into a coma, one who had to run away, rearguard getting killed, the distraction team getting killed and at the end of it all you still had characters lile Andiun and Jaina not capitalizing on this huge opportunity because morals.
With character exposition that was it, the Alliance were the winners before Sylvanas pressed the “I win” button again.
Why are you so obsessed with a power fantasy that doesn’t exist?