Shake the faith, it can be a powerful drive, a strong reason, a strong interest for further development.
In the end, this crisis of faith is rather something I could have imagined more after Draenor, the events there, but now that it is, I have to say: Velen believed his whole life in the complete and unquestionable RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Light. He believed the light is without fault and this belief was not shaken by the Naarus, but ultimately by the light itself. He had the vision with his son in the past, he remembered it and in spite of all his power, all his forces, and all his visions, the Light did not allow him to undo or stop it.
This was the beginning of his shaken faith, the beginning of his crisis of faith. And he also began to question the Light. Xe’ra’s situation, after the conversation with Illidan, only further confirmed him in questioning the Light and he came to the conclusion that the Light does not determine destiny, but everyone works on this destiny himself and free will is more than just an illusion.
Something that is ultimately now strongly challenged by Sylvanas btw, because she says exactly the opposite: free will is just an illusion, it all just serves the purpose.
No need to worry, the Horde has a race associated with the Light now too. This conveniently skirts the issue of the Alliance having to rep the bad guys, and allows our ever creative writers to squeeze yet more war criminals out of Azeroth’s villain factory. Please look forward to Liadrin nuking the Exodar and the Light-corrupted Siege of Silvermoon raid come Shadowbringers: WoW Edition. Can the heroes of the Void Alliance save the dastardly Light Horde from itself this time? Probably.
Can’t wait for Blizzard to release an entire expansion where our characters do nothing but sit in the shadowed corner of an inn and brood about how “no one understands us, or our pain, because we’re ‘too deep’ for them”
Blizzard’s already pandering to edginess; heck, that Illidan killing Xe’ra cinematic was so full of edgelord cringe - it’s a tattooed half-demon dark magic junkie killing an angel-like being trying to purify him (the problematic part is “by force”) while he spouts Randian rhetoric and teenage angst… and the writers seem to want us to side with said half-demon.
All it was missing was Illidan having a trenchcoat, fedora and katana and saying the line “Nothing personal, kid.” And that’s just one of the more egregious examples.
It was unquestionably by force, though. Xe’ra tells him what it wants to do, he refuses, and then the naaru binds him in rings of light and starts giving him a holy paint job before he breaks out and shatters it.
How can Velen blame the Light for “not allowing him to undo or stop (the vision)” when Velen’s response to the vision was to pretend it never happened? He can’t. In that scenario, Velen remembered the vision mid-fight so he had to be suppressing that for millennia.
There are plenty of religious people irl - myself included - who have lost loved ones (in my case, my father) but while keeping faith became harder for some due to the trauma, it didn’t end our faith and in some cases strengthened it… but for some reason (I have my theories) you almost never see the latter in mainstream fiction. Faith, including religious faith, can be strengthened by trials.
Illidan was one of my least favourite parts of Legion. In WC3 and TFT he was a pathetic junkie, desperate for the approval of Furion and Tyrande, had a habit of scurrying around and bending down to a new master every few levels, and ended the games confronting Arthas in the name of Kil’Jaeden and getting his face cleaved in.
But he had a cool voice actor and a cool aesthetic, which seems to be the only things they remembered when writing him in Legion.
Illidan was just doing right by himself. He didn’t want to be the Light’s pawn.
Your personal belief that Alturism is the only way to be moral, based of your own personal religious beliefs, might be clouding your judgement on this.
Putting yourself first, for your own greater good, isn’t being an Edgelord.
What’s wrong with ethical egotism; where do I begin? Ethical egotism is self-centered, and the dangers of selfishness are well-known (from abusive relationships to despots); ethical egotism is a green light for those sort of things. It’s also self-defeating and to work it relies on the assumption us sinful humans are naturally inclined towards good. I have more but I’ll leave it there for now, because why ethical egotism is wrong would make a wall of text. “Ethical egotism” is an oxymoron.
No, I’ve compared both and ethical egotism is found wanting. Your worldview, which I suspect is non-religious and/or atheistic, might be clouding your judgement on this.
Whether it’s good for people to put themselves first is case by case. Selfishness - with ethical egotism being sophistry to justify selfishness - causes more human suffering than any disease, natural disaster, religion or political system and is the true source of a lot of the suffering done in the name of the last two.
Not sure he would’ve been made the Light’s pawn. All we know is Xe’ra wanted him Lightforged, he didn’t want to be and she tried to do it by force. They both had the goal of ending the Legion, and Xe’ra wasn’t going to make him solo Antorus or take him out of the fight if she’d gotten got her way. And Illidan didn’t need to kill Xe’ra to get his point across.
That seems like a big reach. I don’t think most reasonable people would view it that way. People can and do lose their faith over a child’s death. Some people don’t. That doesn’t mean there’s a broader implication that it is as easy for everyone.
The argument was that if he had been more decisive earlier instead of running, he could have just killed them and won.
How does that make him a hypocrite? He hid for a handful of years whereas Velen ran for more than 25,000.
Not sure I’d call that a popular thing. It sounds like this is some kind of victim complex.
pathological alturism can be just as physiologically damaging.
I respect your beliefs, I was raised Roman Catholic, that being said I’m a recovering Catholic who has embraced spiritual philosophy instead and I’m learning that it’s okay not to sacrifice myself and put myself first sometimes, and it’s ethical to care for myself.
When I see a character like Illidan, what he did was empowering. It’s empowering to break free from something that intends to hurt you and what X’era intended for him would have changed who he was without his consent and forced him into a role he didn’t want.
Word of advice, if you’re arguing/debating/discussing something with someone, address everything they say and don’t quote-mine them.
Assuming “most reasonable people wouldn’t view it that way” is an appeal to flattery. I know people can lose their faith over a loved one’s death, but that’s the exception not the norm (proof ranging form myself when my father died to religious people living in countries where they face violent persecution for their faiths and many more).
Illidan doesn’t know anything about Velen’s situation, so he’s in no position to assume Velen could’ve defeated them earlier; we know Velen’s group who refused Sargeras’ offer were a minority. Illidan’s a hypocrite because he did the same things he criticized Velen for doing… plus Illidan’s worse since he, unlike Velen, bent the knee to the Legion. In light of that (pun not intended), who is Illidan to criticize Velen? Illidan is in no position to judge him.
How many fictional stories with religious characters do you know where they faced a crisis of faith and came out the other end with stronger faith vs how many came out the other end fanatics or apostates? If the theory fits the evidence, that’s not a victim complex.
I think you confuse Blizzard. They are not trying to tell Catholic stories.
They have an entire franchise called Diablo based around many concepts of Occult but mostly Luciferiansim and while those concepts may cross paths with Christianity from time to time if you are expecting a story that only sides with, and presents your faith, you may be disappointed by the outcome.
I’m not expecting a story that sides with my faith, the Light isn’t God (or as you may refer to him, the Judeo-Christian God) or Christianity. I’m expecting them not to villain bat the Light, especially not if it’s being done to side with and present the current zeitgeist. And I think they’re winding up to do go the currently popular route and make Velen apostatize.
You must have some resentment towards Catholicism, Luxio, if you refer to leaving Catholicism and pursuing irreligious spirituality as “recovering” and imply that religion is synonymous with being pathological (“pathological altruism”, my eye) Ayn Rand rejected all belief in the supernatural and built her philosophy around that, so her ideas aren’t spiritual philosophy.
Intention to hurt is about deliberately trying to hurt Illidan. How was Xe’ra deliberately trying to hurt him? You could say she was disregarding him, but she wasn’t deliberately trying to hurt him, and him killing her was disproportionate (there is such a thing as excessive force in self-defense).
Why would I address things I don’t disagree with? You want me to quote things and say, ‘I agree with this’? Obviously I’m only quoting what I take issue with.
It is an attempt to show that your opinion is unreasonable. Anyone can be insulted by anything, that doesn’t mean it is reasonable to do so. Someone can feel insulted that, I don’t know, that a random villain is an atheist. That doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a fair thing to get upset about.
Nobody is saying that’s the norm. It isn’t even presented as the norm in this scenario. This is one man. Anecdotes aside, this isn’t painting all religious people in a certain way when you’re depicting one person. Anduin didn’t lose his faith when Varian died. Turalyon didn’t lose his faith through everything.
He can guess all he likes.
And yet they were in close position and had foreknowledge of what was to come. They couldn’t have tried something more surgical to remove Kil’jaeden and Archimonde before it went that way.
I just explained the difference. One few years, one involved more than 25,000. I don’t think Illidan ever said ‘hiding is always bad’.
Except obviously Illidan doesn’t view pretending to ally with an enemy to gain knowledge as being a bad thing.
Personally, that’s not something I keep track of. Of the few series on my bookshelf that really feature it, two series they mostly get stronger faith and one they lean to losing it. As a generally rule, my perception, stories often involve people reaffirming rather than becoming fanatics/apostates.
