I guess maybe it’s all opinion. I just really don’t think the dungeon is as bad as some of you it’s think it is with sanguine. If you have a tank that has a brain attached, you can preplan and drop sanguine appropriately.
I play a prot pally, so I know all about preplanning and working around the affix. If people are “troll pulling”, then yeah, you are going to have a rough time.
Idk, the thought of nerfing sanguine because people struggle with one dungeon which is 100% preventable by group build seems stupid too me.
I think that is half the fun of doing high M+. Thinking about the dungeon, and building a group to tackle it. You can’t bring a group with no pushes, or shoves into a sanguine dungeon and expect a good time.
Also, most people get 70-80% of trash in first area. And then get the rest to second boss. Death skip the last 2 areas. You will have a much easier time.
It’s not really sanguine that’s the issue (although sanguine is annoying in every dungeon). It’s Motherlode itself. Every fortified week, this dungeon has success rates in the low teens or single digits, miles below every other dungeon.
Last week it was 8%. The fortified week before that (fort/bolstering) it was 1%. On Fort/Teeming it was 9%. Single figure success rates every time fortified rolls around. On Tyrannical weeks it’s totally fine though (54% so far this week).
It’s next in line to be nerfed for sure, even if it just means nerfing the trash that most organised groups skip.
Fair enough. I would agree adding 2-3 mins on the dungeon would make it more completeable and probably needs it. I just didn’t agree with the idea of nerfing the affix. It is probably the tightest timer in the game right now.
That’s precisely my opinion too. Sanguine as an affix is perfectly reasonable. It was nerfed to do less damage and healing and I think that was right on the mark. It’s precisely the dungeon layout. the density and positioning of packs, and their relative compositions. Tyrannical has a very similar effect across all dungeons. The amount of additional health that needs to be burned through is relative to the number of bosses. There are some exceptions and outliers, but it’s a pretty consistent as most dungeons have three to five bosses. On the other hand, Fortified scales for every mob, therefore it’s no surprise that the dungeon with the most trash - and generally, trash per pack - scales out of control quickly. Any affix that further compounds that, especially teeming, but also bolstering and sanguine can quickly scale the damage requirements beyond reason.
I think overall ML was a failed experiment at designing a dungeon that focuses on trash. I like the concept but the way it’s populated doesn’t play well with many affix combinations.
I think it’s fair to say that if the optimal strategy is death skipping the entire second half of the dungeon rather than trying to do the dungeon as intended then there’s an issue. And doing death skips and such is a fairly advanced tactic, people in low keys aren’t doing this and are instead wiping over and over again to the horrible trash between the 2nd and 4th bosses.
You consider a 15 a low key? I’m doing 17s and 18s atm, but I wouldn’t consider a 15 low.
The guy said he couldn’t complete a 15 key because people were pulling crap and they were running out of room.
So what do you take out of that? That you need to nerf the affix? Lol no. People need to stop “troll pulling”, or you need to as a tank, make a better route to avoid people doing so.
Are you talking to me? No, I’m talking about actual low keys, like 2-9 keys. People doing those keys don’t do death skips. A lot of them don’t even know what a death skip is. So they’re trying to kill the trash between the 2nd and 3rd boss and begging to be put out of their misery.
Or - more likely and more seriously - they’re just giving up on M+ for the week if they happen to get Motherlode on fortified week. And once people start doing that then it’s a serious isse.
I think you need to reread the original post and see where this conversation started. The point is, sanguine doesn’t need to be nerfed or touched. A couple mins added on the Motherload timer sure.
The problem with adding time, although I think it’s the easiest solution, is that there are many weeks were it’s not needed at all. That said, I don’t think making dungeons sightly easier is going to disrupt any delicate balance. It’ll just make the worst weeks far more tolerable.
Exactly, so tell people to pull there panties out of their butts and deal with the affix. Build a group around moving mobs, and get a tank that has a brain.
I think reducing the HP of the problematic trash mobs is a better solution for the reasons you said. The dungeon is mostly fine on Tyrannical, if you just added timer it wouldn’t really be addressing the real issue, which is that the total HP of the trash in there is just too high.
Agreed. I think the density and nature of the mobs in the second half of the dungeon is pretty ruthless, to the point that outright removing some packs would make a world of difference. Mobs that are resistant to every form of CC, that patrol, leap backwards into other packs, etc. are diabolical at times. I think they just went overboard.
… to responses to their posts, it’s often because the post they are responding to itself reflected a lack of thought or even a failure to read their own previous post, as in this case.
There’s no running involved in a misdirect pull, let alone 40 yards.
I don’t think people are doing death skips in +2. I think they certainly are in +9, for the second half of Motherlode. They learn somewhere in between, probably on the second half of Motherlode.
I would agree that it’s a cheesy tactic and reflects poor dungeon design. I don’t think increasing the timer is the solution, though; that doesn’t change the fact that the death skip is the best strategy. Rather, thin out the second half trash while ensuring that the forces requirement can be fulfilled with a conventional path through both the first half and the second half. That way, there’s less of a reward for the death skip, and it becomes an alternative rather than being a quasimandatory strategy.
Again, I think you’re showing a distinct lack of understanding. If you stand 50 yards form a pull, even with misdirect, as soon as the caster gets in range of their hate target they will stop and cast.
Using line of sight can help, but ML is notoriously low on LOS opportunities. Literally a few awkwardly placed spots that makes ML one of the trickier dungeons for Reaping. Furthermore, you’re not going to get much use out of that spot once it’s covered in Sanguine puddles.
Ultimately, adding even just 3-5 seconds trying to drag pulls back will can add a minute or more to your run that is ultimately just downtime. In WM this is a standard tactic; everyone stands back a room or two while tank drags mobs back. Again, it’s because LOS makes it trivial.
I’m glad we talked about this, because I feel like the lack of LOS in ML might actually be a much bigger factor than I had personally realized. Perhaps if there were more, better opportunities to LOS pull, the dungeon would be more manageable.
I agree this should be the design goal, I don’t think just “thinning out the trash” would help though. It actually just needs to be nerfed. Weapons Testers and Venture Co. Masterminds have too much health and hit too hard for the % they give.
I don’t think you understand what I’m proposing. I’m saying the hunter goes to 40 yards from the target. The rest of the party hangs back, with the tank 80 yards behind the hunter, 120 yards from the target. Hunter misdirect pulls. Casters run past the hunter until they are in range of the tank; melee mobs run all the way to the tank. Both are safely back in a cleared area, and separated from each other.
If a caster dies, the tank only has to move back a couple yards to pull a caster off the dead caster’s splot, since he’s already at the caster’s maximum range.
The hunter times misdirects so that a new group gets to the kill area just as the previous group is finished off.
Or they can give more % each to compensate for fewer of them existing after the thinning, right?
Giving more % would just cause you to go over % and then you’d still need skips which I think doesn’t meet the design goal.
You do realize you’re arguing with an 186 IO scrub right? ![:joy:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/joy.png?v=6" ":joy:")
h ttp s://raider.io/characters/us/maelstrom/Irisse
Hasn’t even timed a +7 key and is offering “expert” opinions on dungeons and affixes?
Girl bye
Theoretically what you suggest is possible, but not properly feasible.
You simply don’t have the time to make pulls in that fashion. All the setup and travel time is too costly. It makes timing the pulls difficult. It’s tricky for MD some pulls and not hit other packs, impossible if you need to pull at odd angles to avoid other packs. No tank is going to be able to keep threat on a caster that’s standing at max distance.
What and when you pull is often dependent on the tank and dps cds. You can’t always expect that to coincide with Tricks or MD. If you are trying to grab a patrolling group at the right time things just get dicier.
The success rates don’t lie. It’s nature in action for processes to be repeated, with all the possible variables, over and over until the most successful methods begin to dominate. With every group that pushes through, the dominant strategies emerge. They change over time, but the best ones objectively offer significant advantages and as groups improve their execution they become even better. So far there are no really adequate strategies that bring the success rates in line with the other dungeons. Not even in the same neighborhood.
Again I look to the striking difference in success rates for those affixes in that dungeon compared to others at the top of the keystone food chain. If the best players in the world can’t develop strategies, or sometimes WON’T develop them, because the requirement is unreasonable, then I think there’s a problem.