After doing many BFDs… gameplay would feel so much more engaging with seal twisting, would love to see it returned in game.
6 Likes
Bump - we desperately need this, it is a beloved rotation and quite rewarding and we all miss it so much (why no TBC era??). The most fun I’ve ever had playing this game is by far TBC twisting.
Those who do not wish to twist can simply use the Divine Storm rune instead, and do similar damage.
The only issue is that CS is a bit weak right now, the weakest it’s ever been (75% damage with 6sec CD and no seal damage proc is the weakest we’ve seen in Classic) in TBC you had CS slightly stronger than an attempted twist, so you had this nice weaving rotation where you alternate between twist and CS. In SoD, if you didn’t need the mana and you could twist SoC → Martyr, then you would never CS, as the damage would be worse than twisting every auto. This ratio would need to be adjusted most likely, though it doesn’t necessarily mean we need a buff. We could be nerfed in other ways to account for this, if there was a boost to CS damage and twisting was allowed.
I think twisting would add a lot to SoD, and it wouldn’t be something people are pressured to do, as they can just run Divine Storm instead. I think one of the major problems with SoD right now for Ret Paladin, is that the rotation just feels like Wrath-light. You Divine Storm, you CS, you exorcism and eventually consecrate, it doesn’t feel that meaningfully different from the early Wrath rotation (before you get T10 DS resets which made the rotation a lot better). These spells are a welcome addition to vanilla of course where Ret Paladin was notably one of the weakest specs in the game, but it really feels like the Wrath rotation being shoe-horned into SOD.
If you had twisting with Martyrdom then you’d have this nice balance where you can go Divine Storm for AoE and you can twist Martyrdom for single target (as Divine Storm will always be stronger on AoE). As is, Martyrdom is just a dead rune, and nobody will ever use it once they get Divine Storm, because Divine Storm is just a lot better on both single target and AoE damage, and the mana replen isn’t worth it (even post-buff). It makes me wonder what the goal was for Martyrdom if you cannot twist it. Surely they realize that Divine Storm w/ Seal of Command is just a lot better, as Command is already almost as strong as Martyrdom, but when you add Divine Storm on top, it just blows Martyrdom out of the water. The ideal scenario is that you have twisting with martyrdom slightly stronger than Divine Storm on single target, and then you have Divine Storm better on AoE. This way, anyone can just use Divine Storm full-time if they don’t want to twist, and do only slightly less damage, but it actually makes Martyrdom relevant and fun to use for those willing to twist. Just adding twisting as-is, Divine Storm could still end up on top even on single-target, which is ideally something to be avoided, and ideally you’d want twisting martyrdom to be slightly better on single target.
It would of course also depend if Martyr procs from Command, in TBC Blood did proc from Command, so twisting gave you 2 Blood hits. Without a 2nd Martyr hit, maybe CS would still be worth using, which could sidestep this “CS:Twist ratio” problem entirely, though twisting is of course more fun when you get 2 hits, as we all enjoy the slot machine element and the higher burst potential.
I think the only real balance concern would lie in PvP, where twisting adds a lot of burst potential, and combined with reckoning would be quite strong. Twisting in PvP (such as in TBC with reckoning) was the most fun you could really have in PvP, and it wasn’t too busted, but that could be an issue for SoD.
There is a huge amount of community support for proper seal twisting, as we all mostly agree it is the best rotation Blizzard ever created (accidentally). It is just so much fun to twist, and twisting with Righteousness while using Divine Storm just isn’t rewarding, as you only get 1 tiny Righteousness hit and hardly ever have the opportunity to do so without delaying your good spells (DS and CS).
There is also the concern of mana - mana is still rough even without twisting right now, luckily they are going to be buffing the Martyrdom replen (just saw this) which could help if Martyrdom wasn’t a dead rune and just flat worse than Divine Storm, but it’s still only 20% of the damage you take (10%) which means 2% of the damage you deal comes back in mana (was previously 1%). Unfortunately this is still a pittance of mana. CS gives a good 2% max mana, which is great and a good step, along with it costing no mana to cast, but it just isn’t enough really. This may need re-examined, especially if fights start to get longer. Twisting would be more mana intensive, and a lot of Ret Paladins are already having trouble judging and re-sealing on cooldown. But luckily they did a good job at making Martyrdom incredibly cheap to cast.
Hopefully getting Seal of Wisdom judge at level 38 will help a lot with mana concerns. Also I think a “Judgements of the Wise” type-rune is desperately needed before 60, for mana concerns. A “Sheath of Light” type-rune would also be very good to make Consecration not really weak, giving some amount of AP → SP conversion.
Also preferably twisting with Martyrdom would be 1-way like TBC, where you can only twist from Command into Martyrdom and not the other way around, and not 2-way twisting like we have now with Righteousness. 1-way twisting rotation is just much better, you never have to worry about what seal you judge, your rotation actually shifts based on attack speed, and you alternate between twist and CS nicely. 2-way twisting you just twist every auto regardless of any other factors, even if you have to delay CS or judge to do so, which just feels worse. Even though it is more damage, I just feel like 2-way twisting is worse for the game overall compared to 1-way twisting. But I’d be happy to have twisting at all, period.
6 Likes
Yeah surv im not readin all that
add twisting now
5 Likes
I don’t understand why blizzard went out of their way to NOT put Twisting in the game when its the most fun rotation Rets ever had.
Please add sealtwist, its fun and rewarding.
also #Canitwasright
4 Likes
Twisting is awful don’t listen to any of this nonsense.
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Twisting is a cool mechanic however we need to use our brains here for a second. Ret burst is already in a good place, if you add seal twisting you will legitimately 1 shot players. You just can’t seriously believe that in this scenario players playing other classes will even bother to queue up for a battleground. Come on.
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add seal twisting and make it weaker than divine storm. Then you have both and twist to your hearts content.
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Well I can’t speak for everyone, but personally I don’t care about doing more damage. It would absolutely be bursty but you’d be losing Divine Storm, so you trade burst for burst. Obviously it should be tuned so that we don’t just 1 shot everyone, but it was really bursty in TBC but it still didn’t catapult us into insanely OP territory, it just made us competitive in Arena. (in fact you could 1 shot people or nearly 1 shot people if the twist was successful and you got lots of good RNG on crits and command etc - or if you twisted into reckoning - could kill at 70% health fully pvp geared resto druid in bear form in 1 twist). You gotta remember that twisting relies on a lot of good RNG to line up properly to have that kind of 1-shot potential. Often times you just wouldn’t get a Command proc, or wouldn’t get lots of crits, etc. We still had weaknesses and ways to get countered, we still had to pre-load command for the twist which meant we had to use a global to pre-seal, and had to be in a position to use it, etc. Obviously it would be smart to have it balanced and not too strong, but even if it was added right now, as-is, Divine Storm might still be better, even in PvP, without some changes. Ideally the twisting would be slightly better than DS on single target, but for that to happen Martyrdom probably needs to do more damage.
We also just lack a lot of ways to scale up our damage outside of runes until 60. Our talents aren’t that great, we don’t really gain any new damage abilities besides Consecration which sucks in vanilla, we don’t have new ranks of any of our main damage spells. So while we might be powerful in PvP now, that might not always be the case unless we get some powerful new runes. We’re just a bit front-loaded right now due to getting CS and DS at this level.
1 Like
Crusader strike should be 110% on a 6second CD, restoring 5% mana
Marytrdom should be twistable
Divine Storm should be worse ST than Twisting Marytrdom
Marytrdom should have a 2 target cleave, it originally had a 4 target cleave.
It should have a improved chilli recipe.
(don’t name me)
4 Likes
Augmented Seals (rune: waist) - You deal 10% more damage for each seal active on you. Seal of Matyrdom now behaves likes every other seal in the game and sets Seal of Command to .4 second duration when cast. Your seals are no long dispelable.
Set it behind exalted crate rep I don’t care, just let me twist.
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Seal twisting is extreme cringe
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Or…we can actually play the game how it was intended and not use a bug/exploit to eek out a bit of extra damage. Its obnoxious, tedious and just terrible gameplay. Noone finds seal twisting fun. Its awful. Stop it.
Instead they need to either shorten CDs or add other mechanics that makes ret more fun to play instead of waiting on CDs which was the EXACT ISSUE they had to fix in Wrath.
1 Like
Objectively, factually incorrect. You don’t have to like it, but many, many people do. It’s not because it “did more damage” (ICC Smourne Wrath Ret does more comparatively and it’s still inferior), it’s because it’s an unironically fun, engaging, and satisfying rotation. If you could get over your irrational hatred over the fact that this hard-coded intentional design choice for TBC Classic was inspired by a “bug” and gave it a fair shot, you might have liked it too. Unfortunately with the removal of TBC Classic you no longer have that opportunity, as it is gone entirely, and those of us who enjoyed it would very much like it back.
2 Likes
Im glad its gone. If they made it into an ability or something it would be fine. The issue was that you are tricking the game to have two seals at once which is not how it was meant to be played. People just liked the bug as you had to proc something at like .4 seconds of an auto swing to pull both off. Its exploiting something to make the game have two seals active at the same time. It was never meant for it. Im glad its gone.
3 Likes
I like how their response is literally just repeating the same ‘hurr durr it’s le bug’ drivel while showing they didn’t read your post at all.
2 Likes
This is such a lazy and boring take. As if happy accidents don’t exist across all industries. If everyone followed your logic the world would be a terribly boring place.
The only thing that matters is the large group of population that want’s to see twisting return. Quit trying to ruin fun.
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there is not much in this world that has brought me more joy than landing a fat seal twist with windfury in tbc. I’m here for it.
4 Likes
Tbh, they should remove seal twisting altogether.
5 Likes
Really? If monks and DKs were in classic I would have 0 reason to play retail.
Unless you mean giving paladins holy power and shamans maelstrom power. Or whatever all that stupid crap is. Yea, keep all that far away.
Im just here to remind everyone seal twisting is for losers. stop ooming for warcraft logs and use your mana to offheal and buff when needed
5 Likes