Player Agency and Covenants

[Daark-cenarius]

You can change races, specs, factions, etc. at the click of a button; well a few buttons.

You just have to pay Blizzard money for those.

Nah, that’s not fun. It should be free. No cooldown. Anytime I want.

Also delete pet battles and lfr. They aren’t fun. Add baseball instead.

[Brigilline-bloodsail-buccaneers]

I’m calling you thin-skinned because you’re freaking out over one choice.

Me freaking out. You’re freaking out because you can’t get me to agree with you that the first choice we must make, which is not optional, adds player agency because it removes choices from the rest of the expansion. It will lock people into a track of gameplay that is limited by the narrow menu of the covenant they chose.

You can opt out of a Covenant if you don’t like it. There are consequences, but the option is still there.

And the “consequence” is that there will be nothing to do in the game if a player does not choose a covenant. It’s a clear “pick one or else we keep your money and you get nothing in return” situation.

I said nothing of the sort.

You said people were asking for this, as in how many people? I saw not a single thread on the forum asking for anything remotely like this.

I saw threads asking for “player agency”, which actually bears no resemblance to what you are claiming. Because they wanted to be able to change roles without paying a lot of gold to reforge their azerite gear. They wanted to earn essences and upgrade them once, not on every character they wanted to play. They wanted to do pvp and m+ and raiding on any character they wanted to.

They wanted more options, not fewer. The “choice” you are offering might not even permit them to change roles, let alone content.

Two months behind what? This is a MMO, not a competitive race.

Really? You think people should be satisfied to be set back by by 2 months and miss an entire pvp season or raid tier? Like wow. You have no respect for anyone who plays this game.

[Trainwreckt-illidan]

Nah, that’s not fun. It should be free. No cooldown. Anytime I want.

Also delete pet battles and lfr. They aren’t fun. Add baseball instead.

I mean making them free would be ok I guess - but the revenue they make from it probably contributes to our sub cost not having increased…ever.

Why delete pet battles and LFR? some people don’t use them or find any benefit, but other people enjoy them. Why remove them when you have the choice to not engage in them, and you can let other people enjoy them.

[Brigilline-bloodsail-buccaneers]

As long as you’re just going to be spewing nonsense, why don’t you just stomp your hooves and demand that all casuals be kicked out of the game right now? Certainly you deserve that for existing.

[Daark-cenarius]

As long as you’re just going to be spewing nonsense

Ahh, so your idea of fun is important and blizzard should listen right now. My idea of fun is nonsense?

Crazy how that works on GD. What you think is fact, what someone else thinks that disagrees with you is just a dumb opinion.

Covenants not being meaningless has no impact on casual/ hardcore players. Pick the talents you want and play. But I get it, its an easy scapegoat to blame instead of looking at how you could actually just get better.

[Brigilline-bloodsail-buccaneers]

Ahh, so your idea of fun is important and blizzard should listen right now. My idea of fun is nonsense?

Actually, I think the game should be built around players with a variety of interests, skill levels, and playstyles having fun, not to stoke the egos of the most masochistic, or to pander to those who enjoy making other people suffer. Odd concept, eh?

[Daark-cenarius]

or to pander to those who enjoy making other people suffer. Odd concept, eh?

Depends on what you mean by “make people suffer.” The opinions vary so much so in this game that any attempt at design, balance or continuity, someone somewhere will complain.

Even something as trivial as the yeti suit, gets complained about. The point is not to make people “suffer.” The point is that decisions are made. Some people aren’t going to be happy regardless. Everyone believes their opinion is important. The reality is sometimes its not.

[Trainwreckt-illidan]

Actually, I think the game should be built around players with a variety of interests, skill levels, and playstyles having fun, not to stoke the egos of the most masochistic, or to pander to those who enjoy making other people suffer. Odd concept, eh?

It does seem odd in today’s WoW.

In general - so many of the systems seem like hazing to players. And then you have players wanting to haze other players.

[Demón-stormreaver (Demón)]

Let me change classes/ specs/ races with the click of a button.

You can create different classes - level them up separately, and then pick up right where you left off with the click of a button at no charge.

You can change specs at the click of a button, at no charge.

You can change races - but there is a charge, and this is done with a few clicks of a button.

Oh and to the OP - choice is what drives agency for me. THe more choices we can make from different kinds of content to the next, the more agency I feel that I have.

[Furrymental-stormreaver]

@Daark-cenarius

The opinions vary so much so in this game that any attempt at design, balance or continuity, someone somewhere will complain.

True - hence why he suggested building the game around players with a variety of interests and playstyles.

[Hepforyou-area-52]

@Brigilline-bloodsail-buccaneers

As long as you’re just going to be spewing nonsense, why don’t you just stomp your hooves and demand that all casuals be kicked out of the game right now? Certainly you deserve that for existing.

I mean - trolls gotta troll…

[Angelinatrix-andorhal]

@Furrymental-stormreaver

After reading through the many threads here about the Covenant System, I kept seeing different 2 opposing opinions about what “agency” means. Both generally agreed that it should involve choice and consequence – but differed when it came to the degree that the consequence had on the game.

Those supporting a “lock-in” approach (currently the planned approach) state that they value the “Role-Playing” influence that it has on the game. Having the consequence apply to the entire character, across all specializations and across all content types magnifies the covenant one “locks into”.

Those that don’t support being locked-in argue against the approach for a variety of reasons.

• They mention the RP aspect of the game – but feel that combining the abilities with the covenant aesthetics tears away at the RP component and that these 2 aspects (aesthetics/abilities) should be separated from one another. The consequence crosses boundaries between storyline and gameplay.
• Additionally, they argue that the lock-in system essentially removes player agency because you’re not given a choice across the various ways to play the game (class – role – content). Consequence can still exist – but within a given content; the way choosing a spec, talents, and essences carry the consequence of not being able to use and leverage the options not chosen for the content the players are about to partake in.
• Even further, they argue additional negative impacts on the game with the lock-in approach that stack on top of the existing “meta” discrimination of classes and specs.

In the end – I haven’t seen any “canon” definition for “Player Agency” to go off of to say which side is right or wrong.

But as an RP-based player myself, I have a hard time understanding what benefit a “lock-in” based system provides for myself or for the game.

I feel like, as a casual RP player – I should support the “lock-in” approach. But I can’t understand why and what benefit I gain from a system like that. If I’m supporting a system that restricts others from playing the game how they’d like to play it, when there’s so many ways to play it, across classes with various roles- all so that…I gain nothing(???)… then I feel like I’m supporting a system that punishes other players that simply want to play the game more competitively than myself for no good reason outside of spite.

Even if there was a gain to be made by a player like me – at best it would make me feel bad and selfish about it. But without a benefit – it seems outright sadistic and hateful towards other players that just want to give their teammates/guildees their best. It’s supporting a system that punishes players for just wanting to play the game optimally – which is mind boggling to me.

If the system was changed to be flexible, and allow for players to change their covenant abilities like we can do with specs and talents – it wouldn’t take anything away from me for staying committed to a covenant. I would still have that option and don’t need to extend the consequences of that choice onto everyone else. As an RP player - I would lose NOTHING if others were allowed to change their abilities.

So for those that support the “lock-in” system, help me understand: Why should I ever want to impose such a restrictive system on others when it diminishes so much about the gameplay for them when I don’t even gain anything in exchange? And even if I did gain something… what would be worth it for that kind of penalty on so many others? Because I can’t come up with anything for either of those questions that doesn’t leave me feeling like a bad person.

For everyone in general – where do you want the player agency “consequence” to be drawn? Across your entire character, or based on the content you’re about to jump into?

Lastly – are there any other ideas for how to actually provide a benefit for players that stick with a covenant for the long term while not punishing players that want to change their abilities?

• I, for example, would love a Covenant Care Package when I open my weekly chest that includes supplies for my professions – and maybe they scale upward for each week I’ve stayed committed. Maybe you get a stipend for repairs for that week for your loyalty.

These benefits wouldn’t be available for those that jump around – but at least they could jump around and play the game optimally – which I can’t understand why anyone would want to inhibit.

Thanks for your time. Look forward to hearing some thoughtful responses.

The new Talieson video hit on this; seems like the dev’s value the consequence/punishment over choice when it comes to agency.

Not sure how that attracts players though.

[Brigilline-bloodsail-buccaneers]

I did not say that. You are putting words in my mouth.

It’s true we will never agree, because I think people are happier and play more when they have more choices, not when they must choose which way to be gimped in the name of a more perfect “RPG”.

I guess it’s more important for the game to be designed to align itself to some arbitrary purism than to have players. Paying customers are inconvenient. They expect to get entertainment for their entertainment dollars. For themselves. Not for you.

I am not here to decorate your imaginary perfectly designed RPG.

[Icyheart-khaz-modan]

The problem I see with the covenant system is how much character power is being locked-in by your choice. Using the Mage powers as an example: Kyrian seems to be the best choice for Glacial Spike Frost and Arcane mages in single target fights, while Night Fae is the best choice for any AoE situations, and Venthyr for PvP. Basically making the punishment aspect of it heavy when a player picks the “wrong” choice. Doing M+? Well that Mage who took Night Fae is the go to to bring as they’re going to be doing a hell of a lot more AoE than the Mage that has the single target Kyrian ability. In PvP you’re going to want Venthyr for the cc, and splashback damage.

The best option they have is to make them learnable talents that can be switched between as needed if they’re going to keep that much character power hidden behind them. That way, the cosmetic choice is still the reason to go for the covenant you want, but you’re not gimping yourself for not choosing the best one for your type of content.

I’m going Necrolord regardless since while I do min-max, I can make it work for me and I like the idea behind my Mage being their champion.

[Icyheart-khaz-modan]

@Dekkar-sisters-of-elune

you do get where i’m coming from about the rpg choice though right? we were arguing about different things i think. lol

The RPG element can only get you so far. D&D is a perfect example. You can make a character that’s so quick witted they can talk their way out of almost any situation and talk Kings out of their riches with a smile. However, get them into a fight and they can squish faster than an insect under foot.

RPG elements are great and I love them, but they should be more rewarding than punishing.

[Tywín-illidan]

@Dekkar-sisters-of-elune

you want to be able to change literally anything if it is higher throughput to do so. i want choices to matter in the game. we will never agree.

We just want choices. We don’t want choices to be restricted.

Your choices can still matter in the game - in fact, you choosing to stay loyal to one covenant for the entire expansion has more weight and value IF you could just switch. If you can’t switch, then it doesn’t matter nearly as much since it wasn’t ever really an option.

[Madbeatz-illidan]

@Icyheart-khaz-modan

The RPG element can only get you so far. D&D is a perfect example. You can make a character that’s so quick witted they can talk their way out of almost any situation and talk Kings out of their riches with a smile. However, get them into a fight and they can squish faster than an insect under foot.

RPG elements are great and I love them, but they should be more rewarding than punishing.

This is why I like the approach of rewarding players that remain loyal to a covenant week after week rather than punishing players that are just trying to be optimal in a game with so many kinds of content.

[Trainwreckt-illidan]

@Brigilline-bloodsail-buccaneers

As long as you’re just going to be spewing nonsense, why don’t you just stomp your hooves and demand that all casuals be kicked out of the game right now? Certainly you deserve that for existing.

I wouldn’t spend too much energy on someone like that.

[Furrymental-stormreaver]

@Icyheart-khaz-modan

RPG elements are great and I love them, but they should be more rewarding than punishing.

I’d definitely welcome getting rewards while allowing others to switch their active covenant ability. But only if they can switch. Otherwise I would feel like my benefit gets soured due to others, that are just trying to play the game well, being penalized for something positive.

[Essaellwinde-borean-tundra]

@Dekkar-sisters-of-elune

you want to be able to change literally anything if it is higher throughput to do so. i want choices to matter in the game. we will never agree.

You can stick to your “choices matter” gameplay whether or not others can stick to their “higher throughput” so I don’t get why you want so badly to prevent multiple styles of play.

How are they ruining the game when, let’s be honest, you aren’t playing with them? You are already playing a different game than they are at this very moment.