Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Just curious - Ion mentioned that they don’t want to see players having 4 of the same class as a means of dealing with the system; yet many players, including some of the method/limit players have already started to do so.
If the system remains out of balance enough where this trend continues - would you consider that a threshold where the system isn’t working as intended and is actually making the game worse for those people?
I think it really depends on what type of advantage players gain by doing this, and how much rolling multiples is perceived as necessary to focus on particular types of content.
It’s really not a bad thing that a particular player might want to play a second version of their favorite class, for example, or that they might gain some benefit from doing so. This is essentially what happens already with alts. There are many advantages to having geared alts, which is why players like having them.
Also, players at the level of Method and Limit already push this sort of thing to the extreme. If having multiples doesn’t require a massive amount of grinding, then cutting edge players wanting to have a second Covenant for their primary class isn’t a huge issue, imho.
We saw this in Legion with class-specific content. There was a pretty big incentive, even for casual players, to level and play one character of each class, or as many as possible.
In Shadowlands, there might be more incentive to double up on your favorite classes. I’m thinking of doing it with warlock, paladin and warrior, which are the classes I play the most. But that’s not because I’m concerned about being “optimal,” it’s more just that it could be fun to take them down different progression paths.
Obviously, there will be a lot of players who collect all the appearances, or as many as they can. So I think it comes down to how the total package offered by each Covenant is designed. If it ends up feeling like one Covenant creates a character that is good in raids, for example, but terrible in dungeons and pvp, that would most likely represent a design failure because the game as a whole encourages crossing over.
It shouldn’t feel like I need one paladin for raids, one for mythic+ and one for pvp.
My biggest reason supporting freely changing convenients is that some of the abilities just seem tailored to specific content. Like the hunter one that lets you ignore los is way more useful in PvP than pve. If it was purely a cosmetic choice that I would be all for getting locked it when you choose.
Crossing the aesthetic and performance lines really does seem to be the big driver of so much friction.
Even if it was just aesthetics - I think people would still complain, but at least it wouldn’t impact performance when there’s so many challenging levels of play across different content types in the game.
Oh 100% sure people would complain but that’s just crying over spilled milk at that point.
It’s that and the fear that one choice will be the best in pvp, while the other will be the best in dungeons (for example).
But it’s also the simple reality that it’s a new concept. So there are going to be concerns about it automatically. There were concerns about artifact weapons. Some of those concerns turned out to be valid to some extent. And some players never liked artifact weapons much.
But it was still a great feature, imho.
Concretely, they were awesome visually, there was a storyline behind each weapon, many were iconic, collecting the appearances was fun, and there was a throwback talent tree.
Having a cool set of new features each expansion is going to mean experimenting and trying something different.
BfA sort of did that, but the initial ideas simply didn’t work. They felt rushed compared to Legion, and they kept the not-so-great aspects of artifact weapons while losing the cool factor.
Just a misfire, I guess. It happens. But Covenants don’t come across like that. On sheer cool factor alone, they are much closer to Legion Order Halls and artifact weapons.
Same with the dh one
I’m on board here. I prefer the player agency of having more than just one choice.
Current diablo B devs are stuck on the idea of high opportunity costs. They think high opportunity costs are fun and force tough decisions.
In truth what ends happening is very binary decisions by making a rigid system.
I don’t want tough choices with rental systems. I want tough choices with my class, spec, talents, and gearing. Call me crazy but that is the heart of MMORPG game play. Rentals have no place in a MMORPG to be the cornerstone of “player agency”.
My fear is that this approach will cause more players to leave WoW for other more friendly games.
A lot of players that are below method and limit level will feel obligated to maintain multiple characters rather than be a drag down on their friends/raid/pvp partners. That isn’t a good thing and leads to burnout.
Either that or they’ll play less because there is less to do if you find content you used to play no longer fun.
It is odd the direction the game is taking.
http://www.memorableplaces.com/mudwimping.htmlI’ve started 4 versions of 3 classes with some members from my community for Shadowlands. Warrior, DH and Mage.
The worst part is going to be having to regear 4 times all through the exact same content…
I think I’d rather just go play FFXIV where they go in the opposite direction in terms of punitive restrictions for wanting to play the game.
Yeah it’s something I’ve been thinking about trying again have a lot of downtime right now because of covid and I don’t want to run out of switch games.
I just love how you can pretty much play any class on a single character instead of having to devote time to releveling a character for each class.
That exact mentality of how to play this game is what makes me want to not support this company anymore.
The solution for players to play in an enjoyable manner is the least efficient thing??? That seems nuts.
I’m in the same boat - the thought of having to maintain multiple versions of the same class is just nauseating.
I’d rather pay a company that respects their customers time.
I think Ion said this is something they specifically don’t want to see happen.
But I just don’t see how it won’t happen.
The problem is the mentality of the ‘always optimal’ crowd. There is no good way to break people of this. The only thing you can do is to force them to start being sub-optimal in certain aspects of the game. I am not demanding it be a big difference or anything. The Scryer/Aldor difference worked in the past just fine. Unfortunately with the removal of certain stats (spirit, hit, armor pen, etc) they limit the ways they can make things different. I do not know what the correct answer is. The ball is really in Blizzards court because they are not wrong for wanting to force a decision on players that has lasting impact. At the same time with their history of balance, nerfs, etc players are perfectly in the right to expect this to be a total disaster if left in.
I mean we’re called “try-hards” because we try hard to be as good as possible at everything we do. While there are a subset of those people that are elitist and toxic - many of us do it within our guild, friends, and communities with like minded people in a healthy and fun way.
I don’t see what’s wrong with this mentality, especially when they game offers highly challenging levels of play and across various types of content.
Someone mentioned a the term “jack of all trades” somewhere - but I think they were referencing the term incorrectly. That term is generally used to describe someone who dabbles in various areas, more as a hobbyist, and never really masters any single one.
But in the case of restrictions like covenants - it FORCES that onto try-hards who enjoy multiple types of content. It literally puts downward pressure on them rather than letting them decide whether or not to be a hobbyist or a master at all of them.
The result is that if someone does want to be a master of all of them - they are then forced into rolling multiple versions of the same class??? That just doesn’t make sense when the subjective value casual/RP players get from the restriction can still be achieved in a flexible system. Many of those players have already expressed that.