I’ve been thinking about this quote from Alex Afrasiabi last November (see the original thread for a link to the Eurogamer interview):
So, I know Sylvanas still has a fanbase, but how many take the view that “she’s doing that for the Horde”?
I can spot like four or five people on the forums, r/wow, and Wowhead who still believe she’s doing what she can to protect her allies. They’ve been getting gradually quieter as more and more gets revealed.
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i mean, is not like we didn’t have 2 CGI CINEMATICS (yeah i am salty about that) about a orc who is guilty of 3 genocides. and he has no excuse for the last one.
“muh zekhan is the best of the horde”
so is hard to not be convinced about where this story is going, we even know that saurfang is going to be relevant in 8.2 probably he will release baine and find thrall for team honor boi.
Meanwhile zelling and zekhan are executed to prove how evil is sylvanas.
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I do, with the caveat that she literally doesn’t understand how her actions are effing things up for the Horde. Don’t misunderstand though, she knows she’s causing severe damage, but I do still believe at this point that she thinks she’ll be vindicated by the end. For now anyway, until we all turn on her and she completes her transformation into Garrosh 2.0.
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Sylvanas? No.
Tyrande? Yes.
Tyrande could be burning down all of Orgrimmar and people would be divided on whether she is justified or if what she is going too far.
Sylvanas? Not one bit. Her actions are petty and cruel just for their own sake rather than a larger goal. She could be say FOR DA HERD all she wants but it doesn’t make it true.
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Most don’t even think she cares about the forsaken. I doubt anyone thinks she really cares about the horde, which is a huge disappointment considering the BFA opening. I was ready for a united horde.
I don’t see how this war with the alliance she started could possible be best for her though. Everything she is doing seems spur of the moment and ends in failure.
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Well, it’s hard to deny that what she THINKS she’s doing is best for the Horde, but is it really?
Her current strategy of alienating everyone who disagrees with her has not been particularly effective, surely her fan base can at least attest to that. She pushed Saurfang away with her brutal methods, she locked up Baine, and now even Lor’themar is beginning to doubt her. She’s not doing a good job keeping the Horde United, she’s just pissing everyone off. And whether you want to accept it or not, the Horde needs Baine and Saurfang just as much as it needs Sylvanas.
Not even the Warchief is more important than the Horde itself.
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Alex Afrasiabi: “Schizophrenia, that’s clearly the right direction”.
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Well… there’s Curse…
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Sorry but the only thing I see is the actual DENIAL Afriasiabi et al have regarding their performance and competence.
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After vague allusions to a greater plan in A Good War, I have a hard time buying it.
Nathanos I think has a line somewhere where he says she has grand plans for the Horde. So, I think in both their minds they believe they’re doing whats best for the Horde. Whether those plans are actually good for the Horde definitely seems to be a point of contention for everyone else.
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The problem seems to be the leads on this seem to not understand what “morally grey” actually means.
No, Blizzard, unambiguous genocide is not “morally grey” and making Sylvanas literally discount Arthas robs her of any complexities she may have otherwise had.
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My only possible thought on the matter is either azerite does indeed drive you to extremes ala Sha. Or maybe the scourge or something is starting to get to her.
We’ve been seeing hints of weird undead activity since WoD so maybe Bolvar isn’t doing so well. I know it was basically stated that arthas took over after wearing the crown but I’ll always hate how blizzard wrote Ner’zul out of the story after The Frozen Throne. (Seriously, if Ner’zul was wounded and in pain due to illidan to the point he was super weak but still able to summon his greatest headstrong champion, why did he die the second he finally got his meat puppet to put him on?)
Anyway I dunno, Sylvanas hasn’t really made much sense to me since Cata. Sure she had to stick around after Wrath but she started going down the lich queen path pretty handedly since.
Virtually no one believes Teldrassil or current Sylvanas are anything short of cartoonishy evil.
People that support Sylvanas mostly want to see her mature as a character that fits the Horde, but keeps her antiheroic qualities. They’re just afraid supporting Saurfang/Baine will lead to Sylvanas’ death, so they don’t. They support Sylvanas in hopes that Blizzard fixes her characterization later.
Most people that “defend” and enjoy current Sylvanas and her actions recognize she’s evil and like it that way.
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Yes. There is me.
I have never been a big Sylvanas fan. I never cared much about her before Stormheim. My loyalty to her position has little to do with her - I agree with the position she espouses on the Horde’s situation.
Even Saurfang agreed with her about the necessity of the War of Thorns, and we see Stormheim in his mind as he concedes to her arguments.
I find many of her positions on the state of affairs to be sound. It is her methods that have divided the Horde.
A Good War and BtS show some of Sylvanas’s opinions that are genuinely hers:
She still thinks the Loa and Voljin chose her for the good of the Horde.
She does not want to be Warchief.
She has put her duty before her life.
These lines from A Good War struck me as relevant. It starts with Sylvanas speaking to Saurfang:
“You are the only living creature I know who has conquered both Stormwind and Orgrimmar, Saurfang. You say a direct attack on Stormwind is impossible with our forces today. Is the same true for the Alliance? Do we have enough natural defenses in Orgrimmar to repel a surprise assault?”
No, Saurfang concluded instantly. He rebelled against that thought, but every counterargument he could think of died quickly. Orgrimmar was more exposed than Stormwind. Its port was outside the city walls and thus was vulnerable. The civil war against Garrosh Hellscream had proved that. It would not be simple to crack open Orgrimmar again—Saurfang had spent years making sure of it—but it was possible, and he knew how it could happen. Draw off our navy, land troops in Durotar and Azshara, isolate the city, begin the siege from two directions, wait for the city to starve …
“It’s my duty to make sure that doesn’t happen, Warchief.”
“And if it does?”
Saurfang laughed bitterly. “Then the Horde charges into battle and dies honorably that day, because there will be nothing else left for us but a slow death inside these walls.”
Sylvanas did not laugh with him. “It is my duty to stop that from happening.”
She died the first time as a woman of duty. After Arthas raised her, and she saw his end, she tried escaping existence and her duty as leader of the Forsaken - and was not able to.
I think she takes her duty seriously, especially in light of her options.
Another reason why I think she has the Horde’s best interests in mind - she asks Saurfang to plan the War of Thorns because she knows her plans for war will piss everyone off.
She did not want to unleash her full wrath. She wanted a moderate war for the good of the Horde. But as Malfurion escaped, and Saurfang gave up on the plan, she took over. Her better instincts were to avoid a cruel and heavy hand by having Saurfang plan it - but when Saurfang failed, she had to improvise.
I may be the one person who does not particularly like Sylvanas, but agrees with her positions. I have never been a big fan of hers before Stormheim. I am not that thrilled after. I just think events prove her right.
She may be crazy - but I think she is doing what she feels is best for the continuation and existence of the whole Horde, and all its loyal members.
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We’ve seen quotes from the developers that Sylvanas takes her role as Warchief seriously, I believe that she cares about herself first and foremost(I know "Ohh the Horror") but I think that goes hand and hand with her intentions to see the Horde succeed.
Win-Win, mutually beneficial situation.
In order for Sylvanas to do Sylvanas she has to do the Horde.
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So… if Saurfang had a few shamans to tunnel through the canyons to carry food inside Orgrimmar then basically the city is impregnable. Right?
Wow Saurfang. You suck.
Having a separate location for your harbor is actually a good thing. Its one of the primary reasons why coastal cities always had a secondary set of walls and gates within their own harbor.
Because it is an easy target if they defeat or simply overwhelm your navy.
If anything you should have built walls and defensive towers around your harbor so the Alliance has to assault TWO locations.
Whats more Orgrimmar is in a canyon with only two ways to enter (as he says it). Natural barriers and choke points that will ensure that you can hold off many attackers with just a few defenders.
Oh… and Saurfang? You forgot about your third entrance? Valley of Spirits it is called.
Good god if Saurfang could defend his way out of a paper bag then maybe just maybe Orgrimmar has a decent chance of being defended properly.
See, the thing about plausible deniability is that, as the story arc progresses, it eventually disappears. The truth does get resolved. And it is a steady progression. As Sylvanas takes more actions and makes more choices that plausibility starts becoming stretched. Different people have different lines that she has to cross before they stop being able to give her the benefit of the doubt. So, over time you will see more and more start dropping her.
At this point, I think most people are at the point that she is well over that line. But not for all. Some will need a bit more. Some will need a lot more. And to be honest, some never will. She could be pursuing the destruction of the universe and some fans will still say she is justified and in the right. That is kind of the nature of people.
In short, I think most are well past seeing any justification. But there are still some that see her as well intentioned.
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Wouldn’t it be lovely if the writers actually took their own lore into account? Magic, airships, portals…
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