It literally is. The only way ret is doing damage is through twisting, only way a ret has burst is through twisting. Can you explain how a paladin does burst if not twisting?
So dont nerf ret? Only way ret is op is with the legendary few will have? Or should we nerf ret because they might get a legendary? Why not nerf the legendary? Have you looked at the warcraft logs ret is in the lower middle. Please explain how we should nerf ret further. Whats your opinion on your own class? You strong or weak? You need buffs or nerfs?
This dude is just trolling about legendaries because he doesnât have one. And judging by the way he acts, his guild prolly wouldnât give him one anyway if there was one.
Look, letâs clear a few things up. Yes, Iâve said that twisting requires elite skillâand thatâs precisely what makes it a high-reward maneuver rather than evidence that Ret is âeasy.â Itâs not like a ret simply churns out damage without putting in the work; a well-timed twist is integral to maximizing their potential, but itâs only part of a broader, nuanced kit.
As for legendaries, sure, Ashbringer and Hand of Ragnaros might be available to more than one spec on paper, but context matters. Hand of Ragnaros, for example, is really designed with feral builds in mind, and you hardly see a ret running it early on. Moreover, while you point out that shamans get a weapon exclusive to them, keep in mind that none of these legendaries are even accessible to Elemental Shamansâand Enh Shamans canât use two-handed swords at all. That simply isnât a level playing field.
So, twisting isnât the sole source of a retâs burst, and the discussion about legendaries isnât just a matter of âexclusive vs. non-exclusive.â Itâs about how each classâs design synergizes with their gear, and clearly the dynamics differ widely between paladins and shamans.
On Twisting and Baseline Damage: Yes, twisting takes elite-level skillâthereâs no denying that. But suggesting retâs damage comes solely from twisting misses the point. Ret Paladins have a robust kit, and while perfect twisting can push them to stratospheric numbers, itâs an advanced technique rather than their only way to dish out burst. Just because a few exceptional players can pull it off doesnât mean the class is inherently overpowered or âeasyâ to play.
On Legendaries and Their Impact: Regarding legendaries like Ashbringer and Hand of Ragnarosâsure, theyâre not exclusive to ret, but theyâre integral to the ret identity. Their synergy with ret abilities isnât something you can hand-wave by saying theyâre shared with other classes. For starters, neither of these items are accessible to Elemental Shamans, and Enh Shamans canât wield 2H swords at all. So, pointing out that Hand of Ragnaros might be viewed as a âferal weaponâ really misses the mark when retâs toolkit is designed around these items, giving them a unique edgeâeven if itâs reserved for the few who can optimize it.
On Nerfing and Balancing: Now, about nerfing retâitâs not about punishing skill or taking away a legendaryâs flair. The concern here is that with the new T3.5 gear promising an extra 50% damage boost (even without the legendary), you end up with a recipe where a handful of perfectly executing ret players can blow past the average. Itâs not that retâs inherently OP; rather, itâs the runaway potential of their optimized kit that risks imbalance. Logs might show ret in the lower middle overall, but that just reflects how few can fully exploit these synergies. Instead of nerfing legendaries or the skill itself, we need to address the design that allows an upper ceiling so far removed from what most players can attain.
In Summary: The issue isnât that ret relies on twisting or that it benefits from a couple of powerful legendariesâitâs that the combination creates a huge performance gap between the elite and the average player. This isnât a call to just nerf ret because a lucky few might grab a legendary; itâs a call for a balanced design where mastery is rewarded without allowing the ceiling to soar too high for balanced play.
Look, just because you havenât gotten a legendary yourself doesnât mean my guild wouldnât hand me a legendary shield if it were available. Your âThunderfurylessâ one-binding Prot Paladin is proof that your guild didnât prioritize legendaries for you, but that doesnât mean the system is set up against me. Itâs not trolling if Iâm pointing out that, given the chance, the right guild would reward a worthy player with epic gear. Instead of judging based on individual loot histories, maybe we should focus on the actual discussion.
if the dps from paladin does not come from twisting, then where does it come from? you claim we have the highest burst in the game, where does it come from? Warcraft logs are showing ret being the 4th worst dps in phase 8 naxx and the new raid. This includes the twisting ret, You want to further nerf the damage? how could you justify talking about nerfing paladins after they were just nerfed alot and are currently showing to be the 4th worst dps
so what is your argument? ret is bad if they dont have a legendary? they only become op when they get one? therefor we should nerf all paladins? again ret is 4th worst dps in this current phase so far in both naxx and the sm raid
First off, ret DPS isnât solely from twisting. Yes, perfect twisting can dramatically boost a retâs burst, but itâs just one high-reward mechanic in a broader toolkit. Ret paladins also rely on solid core abilitiesâlike Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, and Judgementâthat work in tandem with other cooldowns to generate damage. Twisting is an advanced technique that further amplifies burst potential, not the sole source of it.
Now, regarding the logs showing ret as 4th worst DPS: Those logs capture a snapshot of average performance rather than whatâs possible when a ret executes their kit perfectly. Many players might not nail twisting consistently, which pulls down overall numbers, but that doesnât negate the runaway potential for those who can optimize every aspect of their rotation. This high ceiling is precisely what raises balance concernsâeven if the average isnât sky-high.
About nerfing ret further: Itâs not a call to punish skilled players. The argument for adjustment is about preventing a scenario where, through elite optimization (like perfect twisting), a small subset of ret players can eclipse everyone else. The goal is to tighten the gap between the average performance and the upper limit to ensure a more balanced, competitive environment.
In short, while retâs baseline damage comes from a combination of everything in their kit, the potential for massive bursts through twistingâand the accompanying gear synergiesâcreates a disparity that deserves attention, regardless of what average logs might say.
no its showing the top 95 and 100 percentile. ask chatgpt again
paladin is the 4th worst dps with their best build including twisting meaning there are many other classes above ret even with this âhighskill gameplayâ. how is ret above every other class if they are literally not?
how are rets eclipsing other classes damage if we are literally the 4th worst class with twisting included
1 Like
Itâs preemptive and simplistic to use warcraft logs right now to say paladin is âlow on dpsâ. Only two guilds have finished this raid when I last checked warcraft logs.
Ret is lower on the overall data on Warcraft logs because the player base hasnât progressed through the raid. Itâs looking to me like the data is skewed towards the Balnazaar fight. Thatâs a fight where other specs are doing better. the primary issue bringing down ret average is a low bottom end which will be brought up as paladins acquire gear from the new raid. This low bottom end is also likely the guilds who are stuck at balnazaar thus bringing down the ret average.
Ret is the top dps on fights like Mason, very high dps other fights like Beatrix, solistraza, have an high top end on beastmaster , and most guilds havenât even finished the other bosses.
The top end and quartile of paladin dps looks amazing and paladins donât even have Ashbringer yet.
look at the naxx data for phase 8 and get back to meâŠ
uh okay. We should be balancing for current phase content and projected damage, but Iâll indulge you nonethelessâŠ
Looking at it actually suggests a remarkable amount of balance overall for raid-dps supported specs. Iâm actually impressed.
What I first notice is, nearly every specâs 25-75% quartiles (the boxes of this box and whisker plot) are overlapping one another which suggests the majority of players in this sample are achieving similar dps. So raids looking for solid dps should feel comfortable taking a paladin who plays moderately well over another player who they donât know about.
Some specs have lower 25% quartiles than paladin such as enhancement shaman, beast mastery hunter, frost mage. paladinâs 99th percentile damage is above most specs upper quartile. Only fire mage, assass rogue and boomy upper quartileâs surpasses paladinâs box plot maximum and not by much. If you look at the rankings only 1 or 2 players from top performing specs have been able to surpass paladinâs maximum achieved damage this week of 19,591dps. So overall, pretty well balanced.
What you seem to be noticing is most specs 50th and 75th percentile seem to be higher than paladinâs 50th percentile and 75th percentile. Currently paladins have 50th and 75th percentiles only above beast mastery, destruction lock, and demonology lock (and the unsupported arms warrior), Overall paladins are atabout the same place that p7 frost mages were when you were advocating nerfs to their damage.
There is a big difference here compared to p7 enh shamans, another magic damage dealing high utility melee who found themselves lower on the dps rankings last phase.
While most specs dps rotations change as they acquire new tier, paladins has changed prior to acquiring new tier. The data im seeing suggests that paladins are either in the process of acquiring the right gear to fit their new optimal rotation or have been adjusting to the new optimal rotation. This along with paladins maximum damage being near to others suggests paladins will be achieving solid dps for their 50th and 75th percentiles soon, especially as more paladins acquire Ashbringer etc. And this is not even going into how the top performing specs like balance is precisely the spec that benefitted the most from receiving its legendary. Or how the utility and buffs that a paladin bring that are essential for raiding.
As a side note-- most specs support only 1 raid rotation, while devs decided to support multiple rotations for ret so it is a bit of a shame warcraft doesnât let me see deeper into retâs specs within specs. Would be useful to help breakdown the data even furtherâŠ
As Iâm looking through this data id also like to point out an entire spec of warrior was abandoned and rets have multiple different rotations being supported.
I think you might be confused about the nerfs to Paladins and how they were implemented. Seal Stacking was specifically and directly nerfed. It was also affected by nerfs to the Judgement 2-piece and 4-piece bonuses, but those just compounded the nerfs to Sealbearer itself. Conversely, Twisting is entirely unaffected by changes to Sealbearer.
According to Warcraft Logs for Week 9, Ret DPS ranks at #4 overall. That data clearly contradicts the claim that Ret is only effective with legendaries or that itâs one of the worst-performing specs. The logs show that with a proper build, including twisting, Ret isnât at the bottomâitâs competitive and holds its ground among the top performers. So, instead of dismissing it based on selective metrics, the numbers demonstrate that Retâs potential is very real.
Season of Discovery Phase 7 DPS Rankings - Naxxramas Week 9 - Wowhead News
Look, using Phase 8 data as your final argument is premature. That phase only started on Thursday, and no one is BiS yetânobodyâs performing at their intended level. I posted the most recent data from Phase 7, which is complete and reliable, whereas Phase 8âs numbers arenât final. The only real insight we have right now comes from sims, which show that Ret Paladins will likely end up over-tuned and will need nerfs. So stop crying about your broken class.
Seal Twisting should be removed and replaced outright with Stacking (with that shoulder enchant being buffed a bit).
1 Like
I wouldnât bother debating with the chat GPT answers, itâs like shouting into the void. Youâre talking to an algorithm.
You all can talk about PVP till youâre blue in the face, I couldnât care less if they made all paladin abilities do zero damage to player targets. I just want the rotation and build I enjoyed to be viable again in raids. As of right now, I could sweat my rear off while stacking and maybe put myself in the middle-bottom of the pack. Itâs not satisfying to play a build that no matter how much effort you put in, youâll be doing mediocre damage.
Balancing based off the 1% of sweaty rets who twist is an abysmally stupid idea. Just as stupid as balancing PVE output based off of PVP.
uh no we should balance the game as a whole, so that players who are not in the final tier will still be able to play the game, right now, paladin is the 4th worst dps in every raid, not every paladin is on the final tier, many of them will still have to do the previous content
are we looking at the same data? here ill guide you, go to warcraft logs website, click on the season of discovery tab, then click the raid tab and go to naxx statistics, then where it says dicovery p7 change it to discovery p8 so we have up to date data,
you can then go to any percentile and see how bad ret is.
1 Like
you can literally login right now to the warcraft logs and see everything, do you not know how to use the website? you can literally see phase 8 raids in both naxx and the sm raid and you can see ret is not performing well
brother you literally linked me a post that says PHASE 7 are we still in phase 7? didnt nerfs go out between phase 7 and phase 8?
es, you can check Warcraft Logs, but the first week of raiding hasnât concluded yet, meaning the data is incomplete. Right now, logs are still populating, and the full picture of Phase 8 performance wonât be clear until more guilds finish the raid and optimize their runs.
As for linking Phase 7 dataâit was the most recent, fully completed data available. Phase 8 logs are still developing, and many players havenât reached their full BiS potential yet. The real DPS rankings will shift as raids progress and players acquire their final-tier gear and legendaries, so acting like current logs are the definitive measure of Paladin strength ignores how phases evolve. 
look, at, the , naxx, phase 8, raid. get back to me
and paladins were nerfed bases on the phase 7 data, you guys keep saying to nerf paladin more when you say yourself the data for phase 8 hasnt been out long enough when i tell you rets 4th worst dps. currently with the new changes, in the naxx raid where many have already cleared, we have 904 ret logged for phase 8 naxx, and we are the 4th worst dps in the game
Irrelevant & outdated content.
ExactlyâPhase 8 has been live for less than a week, meaning the data is still developing and players havenât reached their full gear potential yet.
Paladins were nerfed based on months of Phase 7 data, not just a single snapshot. Blizzard preemptively adjusted them, knowing their final-tier scaling would be extreme once they reached full BiS.
Ret sitting at 4th worst DPS right now doesnât mean much when their damage is expected to spike by 50%+ once they acquire their final-tier gear and legendaries. The same logic Blizzard used for nerfing them based on months of Phase 7 data applies hereâtheyâre balancing ahead of time to prevent another period of overpowered scaling.
Itâs not about where Ret is todayâitâs about where theyâll be once fully optimized. Since Phase 8 has only been live for a few days, itâs premature to act like the current logs are final.