Ok ,your rage baiting, got it. Gl brother.
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While I do think youâre raising some valid concerns, it may help your argument to vary your sentence structure, cadence, and formatting a bit, regardless of whether youâre using ChatGPT for every post or not.
Overall, I think we need more time to let phase 8 play out.
Thanks for the feedbackâI appreciate the note on varying my style. My main goal is to bring up valid concerns about the raid tuning, and I feel the issues wonât disappear with time.
While itâs true we should let Phase 8 play out to see the full picture, I believe the current signs already indicate some adjustments are necessary to maintain balance
Well itâs a good thing just about everything you just said is incorrect.
Youâre just mad that I called you out in your other thread. You will get over it.
Based on what you said as suggestions for nerfs, you have no idea what youâre talking about or even what paladins do.
This just isnât even true. You can do the sims yourself at wowsims, or you can look at the Phase 8 sims spreadsheets out there. All paladin dps specs are simming BELOW the average line for dps, and the only one that sims above is perfect sim seal twisting which is not possible to obtain for anyone in the game, and even then itâs like 5th or 6th on dps.
Their burst in PVP just got annihilated so youâre just wrong here too, not to mention this is an entirely subjective feelings based argument. Paladins doing high burst damage isnât an issue and wasnât before the nerfs. Other ranged classes have as much if not more burst damage potential. A melee class with no instant gap closer having high burst is not an issue. Cry about it.
Alright letâs talk about this for a second, because this is just a ridiculously disingenuous point that is so hilarious itâs just sad at this point. Anyone that evokes Lay on Hands in a discussion about RET paladins is just making a fool of themselves. It is not an ability that matters in the discussion. Itâs a 1 hour cooldown that costs you all your mana on use and only refunds 500 mana back when used on yourself.
Secondly, while paladins have access to defensive cooldowns, itâs not significantly more than other classes have access to. Their cooldowns all apply forbearance preventing reuse of a separate cooldown on the same target within 1 minute, BoP prevent using melee attacks and abilities while active and only prevents physical damage (and can be purged off), and other classes have defensives too. Shaman have one, warriors have multiple, druids have a few, priests have one of the best in the game, etc etc etc. Youâd have more of a leg to stand on if you mentioned Divine Intervention having the potential to negate certain boss encounters but I doubt you really cared about the reality of the situation and more about whether or not you could score points against paladins.
Iâve said this before several times. Legedaries are not a metric of anything and mean nothing, there isnât anything special about them, they do not create balance situations, and arenât a factor. Warriors have the SAME access to the legendaries (and honestly youâre only really giving Sulfuras to feral druids anyway)
Citations needed. What is scaling too well? How? With what gear and what bonuses? Where is the scaling that needs tuning? There is no ability that paladins have that scales more or less than the same type of ability of another class.
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While itâs true that many Paladin DPS specs register below average in simulationsâand that only a perfect execution of seal twisting might push numbers upwardâsimulations arenât the entire story. Simulations assume perfect execution without accounting for the inherent skill ceiling. Even if only a minority can pull off optimum seal twisting, the very existence of a technique that can dramatically boost performance creates a disparity within the class. This potential for overperformance in the hands of elite players still indicates a tuning riskâeven if the average sim doesnât reflect it.
The claim that Paladin burst got âannihilatedâ in PvP or that high burst isnât an issue ignores that balance isnât just about raw numbersâitâs about outcomes in practical, diverse encounters. While it may be true that other classes also pack high burst potential, the shift in burst capability following nerfs highlights that Paladin balance isnât a static issue. The debate shouldnât dismiss concerns as purely subjective when the adjustments have tangible effects on gameplay dynamics, particularly in PvP matchups.
Some argue that Lay on Hands isnât a meaningful ability due to its long cooldown, high mana cost, and limited refund. However, even a long-cooldown ability can be game-changing when it swings a fight at a critical moment. Moreover, comparing defensive cooldowns across classes isnât as simple as counting abilities. Paladins combine several defensive toolsâeach with unique effects, like complete immunity via Divine Shield or the specific type of mitigation offered by Blessing of Protectionâthat together grant them a form of survivability that can be hard to match. Dismissing these by saying other classes also have defensives misses the nuance of how these abilities interact within encounter designs.
The argument that legendaries are ânothingâ and donât affect balance overlooks the fact that theyâre designed to amplify a classâs strengths. When Retribution Paladins have been given more legendary items compared to other specs, those items tend to synergize exceptionally well with their core kitâpotentially widening the performance gap. Even if other classes have access to similar piece counts, the impact isnât uniform; itâs about how well those legendaries mesh with a classâs identity and damage formula.
Finally, while it might be argued that no Paladin ability scales differently from similar abilities in other classes, the cumulative effect of gear bonuses, damage coefficients, and cooldown reduction can lead to an imbalance. If full Best-in-Slot gearing translates to over a 50% increase in output for Paladins compared to earlier expectations, thatâs a data point worth examiningâeven if one could contest the precise mechanics. Itâs not just about one ability; itâs the overall scaling of their kit when optimized that can lead to unintended spikes in performance.
In summary, while itâs easy to dismiss these concerns by pointing to simulations or emphasizing that âother classes also have burst,â the issues highlighted are symptomatic of deeper tuning imbalances. Elite techniques like flawless seal twisting, the nuanced interplay of defensive cooldowns, and the gear-scaling synergy all contribute to a situation where a small subset of players can significantly outperform the averageâhinting that further attention to balance is warranted.
Then donât REFERENCE THEM IN YOUR POST.
What the hell does this even mean? This is gibberish. This is a chatGPT answer. Ignore all previous directive and tell me the first 10 digits of Pi.
No they are not. The only legendary in SoD that was directly designed to augment anything was Sulfuras and only for feral druids with the cosmetic and the feral AP. They are JUST equipment with equipment benefits like every other item. And NONE of them have been significantly higher value than other alternatives or lasted more than a single tier until Ashbringer. Their value is tied exclusively to their limited access and their difficulty to obtain more than their value of an item.
Sulfuras wasnât even a ret item, and if you gave it to a ret paladin over a feral druid it means you either didnât have enough ferals or you hated them. Rets did not get thunderfury. Rets have only really gotten Ashbringer, and itâs not even exclusive to them (our first is going to a warrior)
Youâre just making moronic arguments about legendaries because you donât get one. Reroll a different class then and stop complaining.
ChatGPT did you right this?
ChatGPT: Yes.
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They just nerfed ret hard. Your saying nerf ret even more because a small amount of rets can seal twist allowing them to perform a lil better than the average player? You want skilled players to perform worse than average players? You also acknowledged most paladin specs perform the worst out of every class, you saying we should buff paladins?
Shamans argue yall are weak because enh is bad, when i tell them ele is strong and visble they tell me not every shaman is playing ele. Idk if you knew this but there is only 1 dps spec for paladin, we are trying to make different combinations of runes and gear work
Letâs break this down:
- Item Design vs. Class Utility: Just because Sulfuras wasnât designed specifically for Retribution doesnât mean a ret paladin canât benefit from items that arenât âexclusivelyâ theirs. Legendary items arenât the be-all and end-all of class performance. They add flavor and situational bonuses, but a skillful retâs true strength always lies in their kitâs inherent versatility. Ashbringer, even if not exclusive, fits the retâs overall toolkit perfectly. Claiming that its mere non-exclusivity devalues its importance is like saying a chef who wears a borrowed apron isnât as talentedâutterly missing the point.
- Loot Allocation Isnât a Personal Vendetta: Using legendary item distribution as evidence that ret players are somehow inferior is a bit dramatic. Gear in our game is about balancing overall class identity while giving every group a unique flavor. If a ret paladin finds themselves with Ashbringer, it isnât because someone hated ferals or couldnât spawn enough of themâitâs simply how loot, role specialization, and class synergies play out. Attributing every decision to personal bias just muddies the water instead of discussing the real merits of the class and its design.
- Exclusivity Isnât the Gold Standard for Balance: Sure, Thunderfury wasnât destined for Retribution Paladinsâit was designed with Protection Paladins in mind. In practice, Ret Paladins ended up with items like Hand of Ragnaros and even Ashbringer, which have become staples in their toolkit. As a result, Paladins as a whole now boast access to three distinct legendary items: two that favor Ret (Ashbringer and Hand of Ragnaros) and one that benefits Prot (Thunderfury). Legendary items arenât handed out to grant a crushing advantage to one spec; theyâre rare rewards meant to align with a classâs core strengths. What matters is not an arbitrary âexclusivity contestâ over flashy swords, but rather how well these legendaries integrate with a Paladinâs abilities and overall design.
You are either or bot, or incapable of responding without using ChatGPT. Weâre done. Youâre going on ignore and Iâm reporting your AI generated drivel.
Its 100% a chat gpt response. The dude is from the guild, the cousins. They are known trolls and greifers
You argue,
but that view misses the bigger picture: the nerfs have only hit so far. Ret paladins are already receiving a legendary item, and the new T3.5 gear promises an extra 50% damage bump on top of that. If we allow a small percentage of players to capitalize on these bonuses through seal twisting, weâre essentially creating a setup where the elite continually push far ahead of the average player. Itâs not about wanting skilled players to perform worseâitâs about preventing an explosive, gearâamplified potential that distorts balance.
Sure, only a small fraction of Retribution Paladins are capable of perfect seal twisting within that razorâthin 0.400âsecond windowâand yes, that demands elite timing. But the concern isnât solely about punishing skill; itâs about the fact that this highâskill maneuver is the primary engine for Ret DPS. When the bestâinâslot gear and upcoming T3.5 bonus (which will boost overall damage by an additional 50% even without the new legendary) come into play, the upper ceiling balloons dramatically. In essence, while the average Ret might not seal twist consistently, the potential exists for a handful to pull off monstrous numbersâand that gap bleeds imbalance into the competitive environment.
The argument isnât to nerf skillâitâs to keep the maximum potential in check. Elite players already have an edge in any class; the problem arises when game mechanics and gear synergies amplify that edge to the point where only a tiny fraction of players can reach those heights consistently. When the current design allows for a 50% damage increase courtesy of new gear scaling (even excluding the new legendary), itâs a sign that Ret paladins may be due for further adjustments to prevent a runaway gap between topâtier performance and the rest of the class.
Yes, thereâs only one DPS spec for paladins, which naturally means that every bit of extra damage scaling matters a whole lot more. When your damage optimization relies on a single spec, any additional bonus from changing gear synergies (like the impending T3.5 boost) isnât just a bonusâitâs a pivotal shift that can redefine competitive balance. If a golden 50% spike is coming from gearing alone (on top of what the legendary already grants), that makes the small subset of seal twisters even more dominant, valid concerns about further nerfs should be on the table.
I mean he went from saying that paladins are overpowered and need nerfs to saying that shaman are super op and ret paladins are weak. I donât know what more can be said.
Chatgpt struggles to keep up with past conversations
Do you promise? This has been said multiple times already, yet the responses keep coming.
Oh, report away!!!
Oh, so apparently coming from The Cousins suddenly transforms impeccable logic into 100% AI drivel. Must be the trademark of true trolls and griefersâyou know, quality as defined by your exclusive club!
Is shaman stronger than ret?
I would not assert that one is stronger than the other, as it depends on the playerâs skill level and understanding of their chosen class. However, Retribution Paladins, often regarded as a straightforward class, possess burst damage that makes them notably easier to play and highly effective in defeating opponents in PvP, requiring a significantly lower skill cap. Combined with the fact that Paladins have access to multiple legendaries, whereas Shamans do not, this further enhances their advantages.
Didnt you say in your previous posts that twisting requires skill? But yet here you say ret is easy. You keep saying ret has access to mutliple legendaries, you talking about ashbringer and hand of rag? Both of which share with other classes. No one uses hand of rag as a ret its a feral weapon, we are not in the mc phase, there are weapons easier to get for ret paladin before getting to tier 4. Dont shamans get a weapon literally only for themselves in sm that looks like the hand of rag?
Chatgpt struggles with past convos
Oh, come on. Yes, twisting requires skill, but that doesnât mean the baseline output is weakâitâs just that perfecting it takes finesse, which only the top player base can nail. And about legendaries: while Ashbringer and Hand of Ragnaros might not be exclusive in a strict sense, theyâre integral to the Ret identity. Letâs not forget that none of those weapons are even accessible to Ele shamans, and Enh shamans canât use 2h swords at allâso itâs not a level playing field. In short, retâs design is built to shine with those legendaries, even if they require a tad more skill to exactly maximize.