All Level 58 PvP sets were removed in Patch 1.11. We’re in Patch 1.12. They’re not being added, period.
2 Likes
So why are HK DRs 25% instead of 10%? What is and isn’t 1.12 seems fairly arbitrary. Loot/vendor tables for most other things are also based on earlier patches, it’s not just strict content gating. Classic has had some fundamental changes like layering and server sizes. It’s also had changes that go beyond just content gating 1.12.
Classic is mostly 1.12, not entirely 1.12.
Loot drop tables are different because there are no relics dropping yet, so the balance of drop tables had to be reverted to fit.
The loot itemization itself however is 1.12 and has always been.
1 Like
The 58 armor are different items from the 60 armor. You are able to own both at the same time, in retail it is possible to own both and they are itemized differently with unique item IDs. When they said itemization is 1.12 they gave specific and clear examples showing they meant that the stats for any given item ID upon release vs 1.12. There is no early version of T2 with placeholder models for example, but the 58 armor remains a separate existing item in the Classic database. 58 and 60 versions are discreet item IDs and you can link both in game. 58 vs 60 armor isn’t an issue of stat budgeting for an item ID, it’s an issue of item ID availability.
The 58/60 armor issue is an odd one without other direct parallels, and to be clear, the items exist in the Classic code. They’re just not available but a GM could create them unlike old versions of other items.
We know they are separate items. We’re not arguing about that.
When the level 60 sets were released, the level 58 sets were removed from vendors. Thus they were made unobtainable. That’s why they will not be obtainable in Classic.
3 Likes
Hypocrisy and Irony.
You don’t understand, you are unironically arguing for changes.
I should also add with some specific examples that Blizzard is inconsistent with removed items. For example, the quest reward [Helm of Latent Power] was later replaced with [Skyfury Helm] (separate ID) in 1.7(?), but Classic has [Helm of Latent Power] because apparently Classic is using pre-1.7 quest IDs right now and that quest ID grants [Helm of Latent Power].
So there’s a clear precedent in Classic for obtaining items where the method of obtaining them gets removed in a later patch. Classic is not simply 1.12.
Did someone seriously just come in and try to make recommendations for classic? Lol… this isn’t retail
Because Blizzard made a change and it would be nice if they partially undid the change.
You just Cherry picked my posts.
The fact of the matter is that there is at least as much of an argument for making 1.11 items available at this phase being a change.
While stats for a given item come from 1.12, items don’t get replaced with other items very often, but in one of the only other cases where the reward was substituted with a different item ID in a later patch, Classic uses the earlier item ID, not the item ID used in 1.12.
Combined with Blizzard’s early statements about basing vendor and drop tables on earlier patches, the 1.11 item IDs being available is the errant change.
Idk about ya’ll, but personally I have started flagging any posts I see with the words ‘‘Nochanges’’ as spam, because this is classic, not private servers which are generally set at a certain patch. Hopefully some of this spam gets removed and they get forum banned because if blizz caters to the vocal majority of these kind of players then classic will die and we’ll never get to play the better versions of the game.
From Blizzard’s Wow Classic Home Page:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/wowclassic
World of Warcraft Classic is a faithful recreation of the original World of Warcraft.
This is what Wow Classic is. It wasn’t meant to be added or improved by player’s suggestions.
We are getting the 1.12 rewards. The old 58 sets were removed in 1.11. That is to say, the items still existed if you had already purchased them, but were no longer available for purchase.
Making BOTH sets available for sale IS A CHANGE.
In one of the only other instances where an early version of an item got replaced with a different reward in a later patch, not re-itemized, Classic uses the earlier item.
If that’s actually how you feel, then you should be for removing the 1.11 versions and using the pre-1.11 versions, since having both and having only 1.11 versions are both changes.
Classic for the most part has been using 1.12 item ID data, quest ID data and mechanics content, but using item ID availability based on phases/patches. Prior to the statement on PvP gear, they even said that was their intent, that items would not find their way into the game early, and item availability would be based on patch, even if itemization for a given ID was based on 1.12. They made an exception/change for 60 pvp gear.
lol ppl like you are F***ing drones
Blizzard decided that 1.12 is the most “complete” version of vanilla, where they had finished the most work on the game, including itemization.
They don’t have any intention to recreate the old imbalances, terrible itemization, etc, that they already fixed in vanilla. For example, it’d be accurate to fall through the ground randomly for the first few phases, but I’m not exactly going to ask Blizzard to recreate that.
I’m perfectly content with Blizzard using the last patch of the game as the reference point for data, and simply gating content similar to how it was gated in vanilla.
Really, the thing I find most annoying is their inconsistency in applying this thinking. Loot tables (or some quest rewards, as you have noted as an example) sometimes use the earlier versions, and other times use later versions.
I don’t really care if they choose to use 1.12 data, as long as they apply it consistently. What I would be more in favor of is simply changing that quest reward to be the 1.12 reward.
Not really. The level 60 versions of the blue PvP sets are the 1.12 versions. It was not a new bit of content, it was a changed one. They simply had to make it a new item ID because some pre-60 characters were wearing the blue PvP set, and having it suddenly change to be level 60 would make sub-60s were wearing 60 gear.
For all intents and purposes, the level 60 blue PvP sets are just the 1.12 version of the level 58 sets from before. This is consistent with Blizzard’s planned implementation.
1 Like
Loot tables are supposed to be done patch by patch according to Blizzard. It’s also a fact that pre-1.11 armor was around for longer than post-1.12 armor. It wasn’t changed due to being a work in progress like unarmored mounts and talent trees. It wasn’t something rare or that had to be rushed for like unarmored mounts, which were the given reasons for not including them. It was changed purely to deal with Naxx power creep, and Naxx power creep went further than normal because Blizzard anticipating resetting all progress in TBC, something that may not happen to classic servers.
Blizzard was very explicit in not allowing item IDs from later patches in early, except when they made the exception for PvP armor, and even then, they never fully clarified if they were only talking about the epic armor, despite people asking and not getting answers. Wowhead even mentions that it was not known for sure, and their PvP guide used to link the 58 version.
The “inconsistency” with quest rewards has to do with the fact that quest data for a given quest ID is from 1.12. Quest ID and item ID availability tables are supposed to be done by patch. If you take [Speedy Racer Goggles], then the quest data for the quest ID changed to remove the item. This is different from a quest where the reward is replaced, and not removed, which is a closer parallel to the PvP armor. The earlier ID is used in early phases to allow getting the reward, then a new quest ID is created in a later patch so you can do the quest again even if you already have the previous reward and get the upgraded replacement.
All item IDs are updated to 1.12 versions, but the “inconsistency” is the difference between removal and replacement.
Also iirc, Blizzard said they updated the epic gear because they didn’t think it was reasonable for people to have to earn those ranks again.
Ehhh, not quite.
You might want to go back and read what they said.
Irrelevant. They’re using 1.12 as their reference, not “which was the case longest.”
Okay? But it was changed in vanilla, and Blizzard is using the 1.12 version of items. That includes the blue PvP sets.
No, you don’t seem to understand.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of items that have changed throughout the history of vanilla, currently using their 1.12 versions in Classic.
The blue PvP sets are in the exact same situation. The 1.11 versions replaced the 1.4 versions in the vendors. It was not a situation where new items were added that you could get in addition to the old pieces, they replaced them. It’s not like when a new raid tier launches and you can still run Molten Core. These weren’t extra items being added, they were replacing the old ones.
The only way you could have both is if you had the old sets to begin with, but the old sets were no longer available because they were replaced by the newer ones.
I think maybe you should.
Developers have scoured through vendor lists and treasure tables for items that were added in patches, and then attached them to the staged content unlock plan. This means that if a new item was originally added to a dungeon boss’s loot table with Ahn’Qiraj, you shouldn’t expect it to appear in WoW Classic until Phase 5, which is the phase that contains Ahn’Qiraj content.
Here’s an example of progressive itemization. The Tier 2 warrior Helm of Wrath originally had Spirit and Agility on it, as well as critical strike chance. In Patch 1.5.0, the helm’s stat budget was changed to Stamina, Strength, and Defense, along with elemental resistances. Then in Patch 1.7.0, the amount of Defense on the helm was reduced. In Patch 1.8.0, the 5-piece set bonus that included the helm was fixed to work with Whirlwind, and in 1.9.0, it got a better look with an art update.
WoW Classic will only include that last version of the item, as it existed in our reference version: 1.12.
When it says “that last version” it’s clearly talking about the new stat distribution for a given item ID.
And it existed in 1.12. They’re doing a lot of things not 1.12 style, like
HK DRs. It’s merely the reference, it’s not dogmatically a 1.12 clone.
They aren’t though when it comes to other rewards that were replaced. They specifically differentiate between new items that are added versus modifying existing items. Modifying existing items is not the same as replacing them with other items.
Of course, this raises the question “why?”. Why differentiate between adding new items along the way and making modifications to existing items?
The level 60 armor is not making a modification to an existing item. That’s why you can have both items. It’s really as simple as that. It’s replacing an existing item in the reward structure. The example is clearly talking about a single item ID going through various iterations.
No, you don’t seem to understand. The items weren’t changed. What you are talking about is the stats being changed for a given item ID. This is the topic that the Blizzard itemization post explicitly covered. In the other cases where the reward was replaced by a different item ID, it is the earlier item ID that is currently available. If you believe your statement to be factual, you should be able to give tens of examples. It’s not a 1.12 version of an item ID. It’s the item ID that was available in 1.12.
Currently in Classic, other than PvP armor, it is set up so that you can’t get the item ID of an item introduced later, even if the item is replaced with a different reward later. I gave a concrete example. You claim there are thousands of identical cases.
Again, there is a distinction between updating the values for a given item ID, where it is impossible to ever obtain or own the old version. If you owned old T2, you could not keep the placeholder graphics. These examples come directly from the Blizzard itemization post.
In addition
When new items are added to loot tables, you’re generally seeing a deliberate effort to provide catch-up gear and/or to provide new goals for players who had exhausted an existing reward structure. For example, in original WoW, items were added to give players a way to quickly prepare for Ahn’Qiraj without having to spend months in Molten Core and Blackwing Lair.
It’s quite clear the PvP armor update was to “provide catch-up gear and/or to provide new goals” or in general deal with power creep. Again, iirc, they made the epic set an exception because they realized how ridiculous the grind was at that point, and how few people would be affected.
Again, please provide examples where an item ID was effectively replaced with a different item ID, and not just an example where an item ID’s values were simply updated, instead of just going nuh-uh.