You ARE aware that Master Loot was only usable in guild runs in Legion, right?
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You are aware that those same guilds would invite folks to the Guild for a raid run just so they could rob them of all loot! Quit acting naïve to excuse Guilds.
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as long as “100%” guild group is 100%. ALL guildies. if there is even 1 pug in it, he should have a fair shot at loot. Just my opinion. if the group is 100% guild, then yeah, let the raid lead handle it.
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a guild run in legion was what? 22 out of 25? No. a ‘guild’ run to be ML needs to be 100% guildies. period. otherwise, pugs WILL get screwed
During Legion, raiders uniformly would say they raided for the camaraderie or the challenge. By BfA some of them were starting to admit that they raided for the gear, and that was what mattered to them. In shadowlands I was told by a raider seriously that anyone who said gear was not a reason they raided was lying. So there’s that.
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I was referring to the discussion between you and Nobully about trials and getting gear. If that was specifically about a mount, then my mistake, but I was focused on the gearing portion of it.
I’ll take your word for it for Mythic levels. I did see this happen sometimes when a guild needed progress and invited someone who was undergeared but filled a critical spot. It’s also a bit of a nebulous point for me, because right now there are ways to get very competitive pieces of gear without stepping foot once into CN, so I don’t know how much of a problem it really is to get gear for trials.
For the record, I’m still maintaining the stance that it would be nice for guilds to have the option back. I’m just pushing back against your idea that gearing is secondary to people (my interpretation of “Raiders like to raid” in response to being denied loot). Who doesn’t have a story of a guild falling apart over loot?
That’s pretty silly of them to say considering that raiding is the worst method of gearing in Shadowlands, so if the dude wanted gear, and was raiding for it, he’s doing it wrong.
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incentivizes not pugging right and playing with friends/community right?
Asking strangers for loot is kinda weird.
I think this is by design.
That may be the case, but a raider has been conditioned to “get the gear” they have to raid.
Perhaps in your guild. But in the nine “We don’t steal trials’ loot” threads there were a number of posters justifying withholding loot and a decision for an extended period of time, including the need for social control.
Their justification seemed to be that “We have no way of telling whether the trials we bring in will be dead throughout all fights, therefore it is reasonable to withhold loot for one or more months”.
Also, several posters in those threads were outed as not giving loot to trials for months then dropping them.
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Yeah I specifically mentioned mount bosses when replying to him. We used to like bringing trials to end-tier bosses just to see how they’d perform on a challenging fight. Nowadays, as long as people who were on the progression team still don’t have their mounts, we won’t bring trials to mount bosses at all. Which seems to be pretty standard, from talking to other guilds.
Mythic guilds don’t fall apart over loot, because Mythic raiders have seen so much gear come and go over the years and understand that loot is a tool. Not an objective. It’s just going to all get vendored in a few months anyway.
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So, then why was it removed in your opinion?
For petty reasons. Just like their War on Flight.
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in whose dreams?
…and i’m not sure why you turned the conversation to mounts.
up until you decided to throw that into the mix, it seemed the discussion had been purely about gear.
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All good points. I might just have a different and more soured perspective as someone who generally stayed in the Heroic levels with guilds that didn’t have strong progression. This is a little tl;dr, so you don’t have to read it, and it’s not really disagreeing with you at all.
Back when I played on a small RP server in Wrath, your best chance at getting a Lich King kill in the current patch, besides already being part of an inner circle of players, was lucking out with a pug group that was likely comprised of people who wanted to raid on their own terms. And, the best way to get into groups back then trying to down a boss people hadn’t downed - during the heyday of GearScore - was loot.
I remember one guild fell apart because they didn’t set the loot to ML and a druid won a trinket. He faction transferred and the morale in the guild was enough to get them to stop. A preventable, ridiculous scenario, yeah. But that had a huge impact on server progression.
That same patch in my guild, I played enhancement for them despite originally looking to heal, because our weak area was DPS. I learned how to sim myself and I practiced to the point where I was doing 95% of what I was simming for at least on Patchwerk fights. Half the DPS in that raid did not bother to put in this effort, even when offered. We got stuck on DPS check fights. But you can bet they still wanted their loot, because, well, GearScore. I ended up being one of the lowest geared people in the raid, because we had too many people on the Warrior/Hunter/Shaman tokens, and I had to share gear with hunters. It wasn’t that I needed the gear to feel important; it just wasn’t being “put to good use”, as much as I hate that term. I went literally three months without an upgrade from that raid. It took us months to down every DPS check fight.
I ended up getting my Lich King kill on my priest in a 10 man pug. It was 4 AM so they couldn’t find another healer and I lucked out. I never got it on my shaman.
So, I tend to cringe a little at the idea of people like them having control over my character’s progression. Because I remember a time when I couldn’t get geared, couldn’t kill new bosses, and couldn’t do anything about it because I was playing with a few friends in one of the few raiding guilds on my server. Of course, today, a lot of this wouldn’t be a problem, but I guess that’s why people like me just don’t have the same mindset as you.
Because gear is pretty trivial and mounts have a limited window before they become 1% drops. Which is why they matter a hundred times more than gear.
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Hrm…I suppose this might be a difference in terminology. At the time ML was permanently removed the only way to have it active was to be in a group that was composed primarily of members from one guild.
Not a 100% group no but, perhaps IMHO, a group that most players would recognize as a “guild group”.
So, you have no idea why then. Ok.
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I’m rather ambivalent towards this concern but there are a lot of causes and reasons we wouldn’t know as players, like the number of complaints they received when an RL gave an item or gear to a friend or someone misunderstood the loot rules and appealed to a higher source. Any research is an investment but at the far extremes are people taking advantage of the situation, cheaper solution is to make loot personal.
without the gear, nobody is getting the mounts.