Personal loot is harmful to the game IMO

[Deos-thrall]

Personal loot has been dangerously harmful to social gaming overall.

[Ðirelash-goldrinn]

@Pragn-moon-guard-1676762

Taking sentences out of context and asking questions which were answered by the sentence immediately prior does not make your case any better.

Could you be more specific? What sentence are you referring to?

@Pragn-moon-guard-1676762

There is a reason that with as many active MMOs and even WoW clones out there

Yes, its called free market, there is usually competition.

@Pragn-moon-guard-1676762

that Blizzard was the only company with individuals stupid and egotistical enough to forcibly implement a system such as this regardless of the negative feedback.

So if you have competitors that means you are egotistical… amazing…

[Valaq-zuljin]

@Pragn-moon-guard-1676762

The 2nd issue I take with personal loot directly ties into my previous one. People privileged enough to pay for or form a loot stack group have a multiplicative advantage over a normal player clearing the same content. One recent example is people buying funnels for mythic unguents while average clearing players (who actually did the content) took months to get theirs.

You miss understand how the master looting works.

They didn’t turned a 1% chance to drop item into a 1% personal chance to loot that item. that 1% drooping chance got lowered. So something that has a 1% drop chance isn’t now a 5% chance to be looted by a group member in a 5man.

if all paying for looting right is even worst now since to multiply your chance you must have a group full of people that can use the loot.

prior that system, the usability of your groupmate didn,t changed anything.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

I’d be ok with ML for mythic raids only since they already have their own rules with raid ID lockouts and fixed size, and it requires at least 18/20 in the same guild, or even 20/20.

For anything else PL is so much simpler and more fair.

I’m also already laughing at the rage if mythic+ used ML and the 2 items it dropped could be items that nobody in the group can even equip.

[Saintcruxe-illidan]

You have never been denied an item after asking? If this is true I doubt it’s the same for everyone else. I would wager most people have been denied an item at least once in their time playing. I’ve been denied dozens of items over the years. I was denied twice yesterday =P. In my own experience most people aren’t proactive in offering loot. Many will give it to you if you ask but not all the time. I tend to have to ask vs it just being offered out in pug groups. If we are talking about guild only then I think the sample size becomes more generous. Also it varies more in raid vs m+. In raids people tend to be more vocal about not needing something. In m+ it all ends so quickly I usually have to ask and even meet up in capitol city to trade.
Seems like the game is just full of different experiences and to have the option as to what type of group you want to join would be a good thing.

[Galabris-alexstrasza (Galabris)]

Your arguments fall flat when you consider ML applies to all of them too.

With ML, you still aren’t guaranteed the specific item you wanted will drop. If anything, PL has the small chance to be better because you could get more drops. Personal loot guarantees a minimum whereas ML was always that static minimum

People rich or influential enough was just as capable of running a raid with ML or having the raid lead funnel them the gear anyway. If anything, again, ML is worse because the raid leader could (and did) trick people by switching from group loot to ML right before a pull…saw that feces happen many times back in the day and not always followed by a collective effort to wipe the group and address the situation.

Finally ML has the same exact issue and again worse when it comes to stingy or shady loot decisions. PL at least protects the individual and guarantees gear they get is THEIRS to do with as they please. No matter if the GM of the guild demands you to trade it, they have no physical power over you to make you do it. You could be kicked, but you at least control the item itself. With ML, there is no recourse at all if the raid lead decides to shard a piece in front of you to spite you from having it or give it to his GF who can’t even out DPS an afk healer. In fact, one of the very first guilds I was in (the 2nd actually but the 1st doesn’t really count for reasons that is too long to go in here) had a DKP system but said us new people could acquire points for 2 weeks but couldn’t spend them and gear that dropped went for shards over upgrades for us (was a guild merger thing). Imagine scrapping good gear in t4/5 content (where gear meant a lot more objectively than today) simply because you didn’t want to take the chance the person would, for whatever reason, leave and/or didn’t have enough made up points to get it.

All that said, I think ML should be a thing 100% for guild and server groups only (or cross realm if someone is btag friends with someone else active in the group). The moment the group is listed in LFG, PL is switched back and hard locked until the group entirely disbands.

[Pituitária-tol-barad]

Honestly master loot was cancer and i expect it to never come back… Personal is ok.

[Ðirelash-goldrinn]

@Saintcruxe-illidan

You have never been denied an item after asking?

If they didn’t need the item, no.

@Saintcruxe-illidan

If this is true I doubt it’s the same for everyone else.

Sure, I also find this a bit unlikelly.

@Saintcruxe-illidan

I would wager most people have been denied an item at least once in their time playing.

agreed

@Saintcruxe-illidan

I’ve been denied dozens of items over the years. I was denied twice yesterday =P. In my own experience most people aren’t proactive in offering loot. Many will give it to you if you ask but not all the time. I tend to have to ask vs it just being offered out in pug groups.

Hum… no idea why our experiences are so different. Different servers maybe?Different content? I do a lot of M+ around 15.

@Saintcruxe-illidan

Seems like the game is just full of different experiences and to have the option as to what type of group you want to join would be a good thing.

Apparently so.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Kirela-arygos

I did see a quick Ion quote about the social aspects of ML (something about being at the mercy of other players)

You’re at the mercy of the master looter. If he doesn’t like you, he can choose not to give you loot. He can also take all the loot and screw everyone in the process (yay ninjas)

While I’d like the option of allowing the option of having ML so long as the group consists of 75% guild members, it would still make pugging a difficult option because “yeah you were the MVP of the raid, but we need to boost my e-girlfriends new priest so we’re giving her all the rings and trinkets that you’re here to get as well”.

While not all guilds would run this way, and a lot who would do advertise that it’s guilds upgrade first, then pugs, then OS, I can still see it being abused.

I still want ML back though

[Sorelai-wyrmrest-accord (Sorelai)]

Your chances of getting loot with personal loot are the same as if you pressed a button for greed. The only thing removed was the button.

[Erthan-hyjal (Erthan)]

There is no good reason for master loot.

Every person who wants it’s arguments basically boil down to.

Someone got something I wanted.
Someone got something who I think doesn’t deserve it.
Someone got something I think should go to someone else.

Personal loot is here to stay.

[Galabris-alexstrasza (Galabris)]

Sounds more like you have a sheltered and/or fairly privileged situation. In the pug world, there is next to no incentive to trade gear away. People still do, obviously, but given the high likelihood of never seeing the person again, I would be giving up a piece that I could shard myself or at least vendor for gold and may even cost me an appearance unlock.

I’m of the opinion appearance unlocks shouldn’t be lost giving gear away, I get it would be gamed then by everyone trading gear amongst each other, but is that really such a bad thing? Probably to Blizzard but ah well. That and allowing people to trade gold cross realm would “fix” the 2 biggest reasons people have against trading with pugs.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Kirela-arygos

Which essentially confirms that the best compromise is to remove the “cant trade a piece if its higher ilvl than what you’ve already accessed” in my mind.

That is the best compromise, but the anti-ml crowd always swears that they’ll all be forced to trade or get gkicked if that were possible.

[Kirela-arygos (Kirela)]

@Grizzle-eredar

You’re at the mercy of the master looter. If he doesn’t like you, he can choose not to give you loot. He can also take all the loot and screw everyone in the process (yay ninjas)

I understand that.

@Grizzle-eredar

While I’d like the option of allowing the option of having ML so long as the group consists of 75% guild members

I think they had something like that in place before it was removed. Obviously it didnt do what they wanted I guess or they would have stuck with it.

@Grizzle-eredar

While not all guilds would run this way, and a lot who would do advertise that it’s guilds upgrade first, then pugs, then OS, I can still see it being abused.

Well, that was kind of the long standing gripe around here for a very long time, and I guess it got to a point where Blizz felt they had to do something.

@Grizzle-eredar

I still want ML back though

What about PL, but everyone can trade as they want with no restrictions as a compromise? I dont see much hope for it, but I dunno if theres a better option to please everyone.

[Kirela-arygos (Kirela)]

Well, probably more so in PuGs than guilds honestly.

Weapon token dropped for PuG. RL: give that to me or I boot you.

I could see it with some unpleasant guilds as well though… Not much better than the ML drama.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Grizzle-eredar

While I’d like the option of allowing the option of having ML so long as the group consists of 75% guild members, it would still make pugging a difficult option

I’d be happy with it just for 100% guild runs. Eliminate the issue for pugs altogether.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Kirela-arygos

What about PL, but everyone can trade as they want with no restrictions as a compromise? I dont see much hope for it, but I dunno if theres a better option to please everyone.

I’d be all for this. But I think it takes away blizzards ideal behind making PL in the first place. And allowing the ilvl restriction to be removed would essentially hurt their feelings and them admitting that maybe it wasn’t the bed way to go

But I’m all for it! Would make PuGs more bearable

[Sarama-firetree]

@Kirela-arygos

Weapon token dropped for PuG. RL: give that to me or I boot you.

Ok, kick me. I got the token still.

@Kirela-arygos

I could see it with some unpleasant guilds as well though… Not much better than the ML drama.

If a guild threatened to kick you over now trading your loot they’d be doing you a favor. Get away from people like that.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Sarama-firetree

I’d be happy with it just for 100% guild runs. Eliminate the issue for pugs altogether.

Raids are still flex scaling outside of Mythic right? So that would work?

[Galabris-alexstrasza (Galabris)]

One fundamental difference though is if the RL is demanding I give the item up or get kicked, I still have MY item. With ML, he just loots it to himself or whomever and I have no say.

PL always lets the individual have the last say and too many guild/raid leaders can’t get over that. They want the power and control even if the reasons are altruistic (to start).

I do agree though with the argument that PL shouldn’t have the dumb upgrade rule preventing trading baked in. Regardless of what the game feels, “I” should always have the final say what to do with my item. If I want to give it to someone else, the game should let me provided, of course, the person was eligible for loot and whatnot.