Look if everyone used ML properly it is the superior tool. I agree with that. The well run guilds will use it. Herds will follow 
I disagree. I think after seeing how much better PL has been, it’s fans would be very resistant to go back.
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There isn’t even an issue in raids. The issue is fabricated by those wanting to control loot. No group is being held back by not being able to trade, every guild is under the same rules and suffers the same inability to trade. Every guild will have to opportunity to progress at the same speed.
The Personal Loot “problem” is that you might get a drop you don’t want, but you wouldn’t mind trading or giving to someone else, but can’t because of ilvl. This “problem” ceases to exist when you stop viewing others’ loot as something you should get/give. That drop then becomes the same as every other drop that no one wants.
The Master Loot problems are that it encourages groups to take advantage of individuals, leaves the door wide open for corruption within groups, and leads to hurt feelings regardless of whether loot was or wasn’t distributed fairly.
Blizzard changed to a model that protects players, while not being as advantageous towards gearing a group quickly.
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You’ve said this at least 3 times now. Maybe you should.
This is an impossibility. Power corrupts.
Even if you justify that your hunter should get a trinket cause of the governing rules. The Druid, Rogue, EnhShaman are all going to be upset if they wanted that trinket. They may or may not vocalize their discontent, but it will be there. And as soon as the appearance of a trend occurs that discontent will rise to create a problem.
Right now people are upset at Blizz for RNG or loot rules. Under ML people will be upset with their friends, guildies, and associates.
Yeah,there is that problem guess that’s why they did it.But imho,I still do think guild groups should have their loot be govern by them .I see your point though.
For example,if I run with another guild group ,they said i get a piece during the run,when throughout it I don’t they’ll funnel it all to their guild member or friends, payed looter.
Not in a progression guild. Because progression raiding isn’t about getting gear. Progression raiding is actually a fantastically inefficient way to get gear.
We’ve always done loot by consensus. The people who can use the item talk it over and figure out whom it’s best for. Nobody gives a damn about their personal gear because it’s all going to get vendored in the next tier anyway (if not sooner).
Progression raiders don’t care about loot, it’s just a tool. What we want is the ability to use our tools efficiently, like we always did before. Rather than have the tools sit wasting away in the bags of people who didn’t want them and won’t use them, but can’t give them to their friends.
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If that’s the case. Lets remove gear rewards from mythic raiding completely. It will just be harder than heroic, and you can do it with heroic gear for cosmetics.
I’ll wait for the “hell no” since your argument is full of hot air to begin with.
Without gear, you’d have a hell of a time finding people to do it… Incentives rule the world.
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Fine with me. We could remove gear from the game entirely as far as most progression raiders are concerned, I think you’ll find.
i remember watching a classic wow streamer like a year ago and they were in an officer meeting talking about trials. he said that the trials wouldnt get any loot until after their 4th week of raiding and even then theyd be on low priority of rolls
just thinking about being stuck on the same power level for 4 weeks in a row just seems so unfun and a waste of time. at least with PL people will always have some sort of power progression
Going without upgrades for 4 weeks is pretty standard these days in retail raiding. Most raiders get their gear from M+ or PvP, especially in Shadowlands. At least for the bulk of progression.
Yeah this is just BS. If you didn’t care about loot then it wouldn’t matter if loot dropped at all. No one would be complaining about the terrible rate at which loot drops in raid.
You absolutely do care about loot. You just don’t expect it to last for a long time.
^ This conversation doesn’t exist if you don’t care about loot.
What I think you mean to say, is that you put progression before loot. Which doesn’t eliminate hurt feelings or problems from ML. It only soothes the problem for a bit. Progression groups are not some utopia where the whole raid is happy about loot and sticks together forever.
Yup, always happens. They used to cry non stop about how trials take all the gear, and the people that suffered through progression and sacrificed their time to get those bosses down were cheated. Thus trials got nothing, until they had “paid their dues”.
What else did they always cry about. Oh right, that new players came in, sucked up all the gear, and the heroes of the guild who were there from the beginning got shafted. Then they would leave and guild hop. On to bigger and better things, as if the guild owned that persons character and all the gear on it forever after.
So you believe raiding as not that important and mythic+ more so?
Yeah right. Have you not read the forums?
“Casuals don’t deserve gear unless they do hard content. No one would do hard raids if not for gear.”
I highly doubt your opinion is that popular. Or you would see a lot more support for casual gear improvements.
thats factually wrong since the addition of the great vault. if you said this in bfa your argument would have a leg to stand on but right now thats just wrong
It used to be that raiding was as self-sustaining system, meaning you could raid by raiding.
If you rewind to something like Black Temple, for example, it was a raid tier that was out for 10 months. And your gear came from the raid. The whole system was designed so that you slowly geared up over the months, which enabled you to do the harder and harder bosses deeper into the raid.
Blizzard has been dismantling the system over the years through a number of changes:
- Raid tiers are much shorter, some as short as 4 months. There’s no time to gear up just through the raid anymore, you have to get your gear from elsewhere.
- M+ rewards unlimited quantities of loot. And starting with Nighthold, Blizzard started tuning the Mythic raids on the assumption that everyone would already be geared to the teeth with M+ gear before they even walked in the door. (That wasn’t the case with Emerald Nightmare. It never occured to Blizzard that people would do M+ and raids, so EN was tuned for people who didn’t do M+. It was the only time they ever did that.)
- Shadowlands added a triple whammy by reducing raid drops by half (making non-raid loot sources even more important), and by making PvP and M+ gear way easier to get (the latter through the great vault).
The term “raider tax” gets thrown around to describe all the things Blizzard makes raiders do in order to be able to raid effectively. And a big part of the whole package is that Blizzard tunes the Mythic raid around people who HAVE done all the raider tax stuff, so… you pretty much have to do it.
Great Vault gear comes from M+ though since it’s infinitely easier to do 4 keys than to clear 7 Mythic bosses.
You double or triple dipping the loot system is not a great argument for why ML should come back bud. It’s not much of an argument at all.
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You just have to twist everything into a red-hot torrent of raider hate, don’t you?
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