They made ret ranged and holy melee. Make it make sense.
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Please break it down for me because coming from playing both, have 2 charges of divine steed with a 5 second duration of 100% movement while you can still attack and do your full rotation from 20 yards away plus freedom for a boost is significantly more useful than ghost wolf.
Feral Lunge is buggy and canât be used during a lot of mechanics because itâll kill you plus it has a horrible dead spot where you canât use it and canât melee. You could take gust of wind for a single push in a direction once every 20 seconds but you give up your only root break or you take your root break for a 60% movement for 8 seconds once a minute.
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Enhance has spirit wolf, baseline feral lunge, root totem, stun totem and estatic fotem. Gust of wind or spiritwalk.
I am amazed you try to argue enhance has even or worse mobikity than ret when enhance is the prime spec that can kite ret forever because it csn purge freedom. Steed does not work without freedom
???
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I think theyâre only discussing PvE.
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Damn your right on every level haha.
Late response.
The ranged nerf for what amounts to basically melee skills with a magic flourish means that mid-range skills or spell-casts that should fill in the missing melee skill rotations should come to the forefront for those distances, even if theyâre included into the base melee range rotation.
This creates a sense of continuous skill engagement during most fights where you do have to move around and youâre not always going to be within normal melee range. It creates a more interesting rotation for the players. It wasnât a call to nerf the behavior of something for the sake of it. I do play this class myself and I want it to remain effective and interesting. I just think itâs a little ridiculous sometimes.
Certain mid-range and semi-long ranged skills only become effective or useful during weird proc windows, when they can be baked into the rotation and also be a mid / long ranged rotation like skill as a filler between major melee cooldowns.
BOJ kind of serves this purpose when youâre waiting for Judgement to cool down, and to some extent Divine storm does this too with the mid-range projection. But things like Final Verdict being mid-range and a marginal ST skill just feels bad. Iâd rather it be melee range only, have strong ST with reduced cost and have a minor AOE contribution just with the sacrifice of its range.
Cant get on board with lowering FV range, but am on board with increased range on rebuke and making FV 2/3s stronger than Judgment is now. Having FV be only slightly more damage than Judgment and Judgment being very weak is what made AW/Crusade 100% required to do meaningful damage. A lack of scaling made it so overall damage didnt increase with AW/Crusade up time increasing a lot.
In pvp while playing as MM I find Ret offers little challenge.
Ret uses LoH, just tear down their health again, the armor bonus if present isnt noticable.
WoG heals for nothing and its Armor boost is not noticable.
Flash Heal heals for nothing.
Ret Bubbles, I kite.
Ret BoPs, I remove it with an instant cast Tranquilizing Shot.
Ret SoV/DP, SoV pops in 1 or 2 seconds and DP isnt noticable.
Casters stay out of inturupt range Vs Ret nearly always and if one gets baited to come to me I use two knockbacks to send them to the grave. How in the world is a Ret going to keep up with high mobility specs. Chase a mage, die trying. Chase a hunter, die trying. Chase a Warlock that knows how to use ports and gates, die trying while feared during steed.
Ret is thematically popular for sure, but people are successful playing Ret in spite of itâs design, not because of the design. If you win playing Ret you know you really deserved it.
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There was better MASSIVE discussions about this for ages. Steed can have 2 charges but thatâs not really much of anything compared to the CC ability and gap makers other classes have. Iâm not sure they know what to do at this point.
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Very true. See the exceptionally visually telegraphed Steed, use MC, Fear, Stun, Snares, ect ect. Every single CC including slows make Steed fail to function without using Divine Shield for some CC with Steed, or Blessing of Freedom with others. Receiving fears during Steed could be enough for plenty of players to stop playing Ret in pvp. Yay, Iâm fastâŚOH NO Iâm fast in the wrong direction!!!
Thatâs also including that most of those are easily dispellable. Coupled with the fact that most casters have nuke abilities and pet stuns that absolutely have to be accounted for youâre getting 3 shot and thatâs not counting their own personal fears, slows, roots and traps that will have the same affect. Bubble applies forbearance and you have to stop to heal up, LoH applies forbearance and leaves the same nuke susceptibility as unless you disengage and break LoS. Heavy caster pressure, no real gap closers, and lengthy CD on the one that we have on 2 charges is going to result in a loss more than a win.
ETA: Paladin is the only melee spec I know of that has to run a cancel aura macro to prevent mages from spell stealing their defensives. That alone should tell you how lacking the class is.
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Repentance, casted/inturupted, can be reflected, dispelled + breaks from damage, also stopped by knockbacks/knockups, all player forced movement (fears)and stuns.
Searing Glare, casted/inturupted, also stopped by knockbacks/knockups, all player forced movement (fears) and stuns.
Blinding Light, breaks from non-holy damage
Hammer of Justice can be reflected, dispelled
Divine Shield, apply Forbearance, Dispelled
BoP, puts Blessing of Spellwarding on a 4-5min cooldown, applys Forbearance, dispelled
Blessing of Freedom, Dispelled, Stolen, or rendered useless from a fear or stun
Blessing of Spellwarding, puts Bop on a 4-5 min cooldown, god forsaken Forbearance, wards 0 spells that are CC , not a defensive to Knockbacks.
Divine Steed, rendered useless from all CC, not knockback immunity.
Primary damage ability Execution Sentence, can be reflected or immuned
Almost every single talent or ability, including pvp talents, are nerfed in pvp.
Playing Paladin is tons of fun in pvp
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This.
Absolutely well said. We have ranged yes but itâs like trying to fight with your right arm tied to your left ankle. Yes u can flail about and do ââsomeââ dps but you sure as hell is not gonna take down that target.
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True but at the same token, as long as we have as much range as we do, we can never get a gap closer, and in pvp, we still will fight at range instead of melee at most instances.
With CS/TS/CSAA and subsequent holy power generation and damage requiring melee range, and rebuke requiring melee range, ranged classes with ranged inturupts have a design advantage if their pillar use, CC use, and instant mobilty use is better than HoJ + Steed. As near to the line of ranged class paladin is, it remains on the melee side of that fence. Once LoS is utilized by faster specs, paladin shows more of its weaknesses, beyond the flaws/features mentioned in my above post.
Paladins can rely heavily on teammates to provide MS, far more effective CC, Disarms, instant mobility to actually reach melee range vs ranged enemies more reliably. If Paladin was fairly compensated for lacking MS, Disarm, instant mobility, it would look a lot like 10.0.7 Ret with more damage and better defensives.
In a pvp environment equal effectiveness doesnât require identical tools, but near equal effectiveness for a given role is very important.