Paladins DO NOT Need More Gap Closer in PvP Phase 4 PTR

WoW Classic Season of Discovery
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I was watching a Video on Hellojtello’s channel and he pointed out that some Paladins where desiring more GAP closer for PvP on the PTR.

As Pallytime215 I have to say that this would be a VERY bad idea.

Traditionally Paladins use Nade, Repent, Goblin Mortar, Gnomish Net O Matic (Tidal Charm and Nifties as Back up) to Gap Close. Toss in Swiftness Potion and we tend to catch Targets just Fine.

Note that MANY of these closing options are currently not available on the PTR.

Fire Resist, of which Paladin can EASILY get over 200 (50% DR) in Tier 1, Tier 2, and 5 Piece / 3 Piece T2 Hybrid… Gives Paladin a 55% Chance to Resist Mortar and Nade Stuns (Fire Based Stuns in General) Which act as a sudo Gap Closer.

However…

All that said… By FAR the BEST Reason Paladins should not have Gap Closers is that they are one of the “Immobile” Class Designs. Priest and Warlock also fit such a statement as well as Shaman and Warrior to a lesser Degree.

These Classes have VERY poor Mobility and Limited Options to get out of Slows.

They are BALANCED about being VERY TOUGH and Lethal IF you get close to them… but basically have no way to prevent classes from stunning them and running away in a straight line.

Paladin Lines up with this formula PERFECTLY.

When they are in Melee there Damage, Health, and Mana Regeneration are easily the highest in the game (Edward the Odd + JoW + SoR x2 Proc for example to say nothing of Crusader Strike).

With MANY Defensive CD’s, High HPS and RESIST Play available they are STUPIDLY hard to put down in Build Correctly and played with even the slightest bit of sense.

If you have never tested it… Paladins in Melee with ANY other Class… WIN and win quite easily. Hence all the kiting people are forced to do against us.

If Paladins have a +1 Gap Closer… more then say Avengers Shield… one of two things would happen. Either they would be the most broken class in the game. Or players would swap out one of the gap closer trinkets for a DPS Trinket and be Right back here complaining that they need more gap Closer.

The SHEER Durability and ENDLESS Defensive CD’s… Divine Protection 3m CD… Bubble 5m CD… Wings 3m CD… BoP 3m CD… Aura Mastery or Avengers to be used offensively or Defensively… ARE Paladin Gap Closers.

As usual… I suspect most Paladin Players just aren’t Building Right…

Love to be Proven Wrong Though. But I haven’t had any issues with Paladin Pre or Post PvP Damage Nerfs. And yes I have videos and Guilds on the subject.

If you can’t catch them = Out Survive them.

There is an EXTREMELY High Probability that Paladin 1v1’s will become Mana wars in SoD. And in BG’s your are suppose to be Healing tell low mana then get stuck in… As well has have damn near x2 Thicker Mana bar then you currently have… (Example: Phase 3 Paladin currently has 3900hp and 4200 Mana Compared to most having 2500 mana).

Paladin is a CLASS where how you GEAR and RUNE and Talent is 80% of the fight. She is not Mechanical. She is Cerebral.

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Good feedback.

Wrong forum.

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All things that all other classes get access to as well. And none of those are gap closers. Those are crowd control effects. They do not help you to close gaps innately. You still have to walk over there. While being peppered with crowd control from others. Or dispels on your target. And contrary to what duel tournament aficionados like to claim, PVP is not 1v1s.

Resisting a crowd control effect is not a “pseudo gap closer”

Of those classes only two fall into the category of not having fight control. Priests and Warlocks. Shaman had LOTS of control over their fights, including multiple ranged slows AND a freedom directly taken from the Paladin class.

Warriors got charge in combat, in any stance, that removes roots and a ranged weapon that roots a target.

This reads more like someone that loves the idea of duels and not standard PVP.

There are certainly some concerns about paladins use of Divine Protection with mobility, and one I certainly hold, but you spend no time talking about that. This is SoD. Things change. Paladins need mobility or control. They either need a slow, or they need a way to close distance. If you can give shaman freedom, you can give paladins something.

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Judgement of Justice?

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I will say you are one of the GOATS When it comes to ret paladin in PvP In classic

BUT I will also say, every other class in the game has received mobility runes and paladin has stayed the same

Im going to keep it 1000% honest with you, i have a 0% chance of losing on my mage to a paladin because i can literally toy with you the entire time.

I do aggree they make up for the lack of mobility in other areas, but i dont think its an awful thing if they got a movement speed bonus attached to when you use judgement (Let’s say 25% for 4 seconds)

You already know though, ur the goat, just some outside thoughts =D

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it doesn’t do anything in this iteration of the game in PVP. it prevents mobs from fleeing but that’s it.

I think it might’ve been TBC when they made it so judging it on a player would prevent them from using movement speed increase, but not right now. JoJ useless in PVP.

seal can be used to fish for interrupts if your GCD and weapon swing line up with the cast, not exactly reliable though

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somewhat of an issue with this is judgement is only 10 yard range though. if I’m in 10 yard range I’m already in both repentance and hoj range

now exorcism on the other hand…

jk we got swiftness pots, just make wings undispellable

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I dont like that “We can use Consumable / Object A, B C” Because literally EVERYONE can do that

What happens if someone else uses the same item at the same time? Then ur just back at a disadv. Lol

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I mean I wouldn’t be opposed to getting a long arm of the law style movement speed increase

just saying wings giving forebearance for a whole minute and being purgeable makes it feel dumb to press in pvp and feels like a bigger prio to me personally lol

I’m fine with the minute of forebearance but not both

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You are only playing as a support in bgs though, which is fine if thats what you enjoy playing. But in reality in BGs you are just half a healer and half a dps, nothing more. You will never damage anyone enough to be a worry, nor will your heals actually keep someone up getting bursted.

This would be like telling feral druids instead of trying to do damage, run around in a healing set and then go back into bear form to give people windfury and thats the only way they should play. They dont need to output because they are supporting.

People like to play different versions of classes though, especially in sod which opens up possibilities. We dont want to stick to the same formula the classic paladin playstyle presented, if i wanted that i would play era.

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I realize that JoJ does nothing in vanilla, I was suggesting they make an adjustment to it as per TBC. Sorry I was not clear in my post.

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Making JoJ slow targets to 100% speed, at the very least, would go a long way to helping Paladins ‘close the gap’.

We don’t have a slow; Shaman
We don’t have an instant gap closer; Warriors
We don’t have a sprint; Druid, Rogue
We don’t have a root; Druid

*Note: I intentionally ignore the Runes and stick to the ‘base abilities’. Because you could argue that Avenger is our ‘gap closer’ by way of a slow. But it requires that we have the Rune equipped. While the above classes simply need to be the appropriate level to learn the ability.

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Wrong forum. There is a phase 4 PTR forum specific for feedback. Devs explicitly stated that won’t be monitoring this forum for feedback.

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I have nothing but respect for you Pallytime but I have my concerns with some things you said.

You mentioned several items of usage which I understand there are many consumes in the game to go with. Very ideal especially from back in the day we would rely on certain items to change the tides in PVP. However, since we are in SOD now seeing new things for classes changes the very game itself to the point were tides have been shifted for other Melee specs in comparison to our very own.

Warriors via Meat Hook with several already gap closing things they never asked for, Rogues with Shadowstep, etc. The list goes on for other Melee specs. We are the ONLY class that has a lack of something, and at minimal, not even asking for Divine Steed, or Hell Long arm of the law, but just an improve PoJ for like 5seconds off a Judgement or something minor I see more as a convenience sake, rather having to depend on the usage of items constantly were others do not. I understand your take on our defensives and how much we sustain, but when a class can Global you much faster than you can get to them, regardless of how much of a mini-raid boss we become we still lose. This is also noted from another Paladin brother PeacebladeTV who mentioned the very concerns I have as well.

You also mention Paladins beat other melee classes with ease. I think when CDs are offline and no Bubbles available. This is not true. Other classes still have amazing ways to kill us and also fighting especially atm in the PTR Druids, is almost unkillable, not saying they can’t be beat atm ofc, just a really tough fight. I saw a druid in SW yesterday solo’n folks and basically kiting them out the entire time. I am not saying were not solid in the sense of Melee DPS, but we definitely lose time from time.

I think Gap Closing wouldn’t be broken if dealt with correctly. Maybe if they only let you use 1 or the other and you cannot use Avengers Shield with it, or possibly make it in a way were it’s a minor increase to speed for a couple seconds, something I would love to see and I am sure other Paladins would to.

I have done tons of pvp myself and understand certain areas of my weakness when I see them, and as much as I try, there are just some things I can’t do due to the lack of design backed behind them. Yes I can use items or consumes, (so can everyone else though) yes I have CDs on the bubbles as mentioned, (exclusive to us) but at the very core of the kit we are slow. While other classes gain more speed, we fall behind on choices made from the SOD team atm.

Just my 2 cents amigo, no hate much luv brother :lock:

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Here is the problem with you assessment IMO.

  1. Most PvP is actually 1v1’s of an Open World nature. You should care about 1v1’s because complain that X class can’t Win a 1v2 is kind of silly. That is as it should be most the time.

  2. In BG’s Paladins have NO issues Gap Closing. Pressing W will get you where you need to be just fine.

  3. I did an entire Guide on Healing For Paladins in BG’s… Ranging most CC’s… Blessing of Sacing anything you can… Cleansing hard CC wherever you can find it. BoP + Dwarf For Rogues and Wars that try to stop your healing (AKA BoP Self and Pop Rail = you Laugh at Rogues / wars and keep healing). AT THAT POINT… Fire damage based Stuns… Nades, Mortar are about the only thing that can reach out and shut you up at the 35y range.

SoD has most stuns flying around but the Strategy still Holds.

Paladins don’t need Gap Closers in BG’s. If anything we kind of have it good being one of the only classes that can move around in frost traps.

What you are SUPOSE to do as a Paladin is Heal tell nearly OOM then wade into combat.

Most of them just Yolo… explode and complain on the forums.

  1. Fire Resist is a Sudo Gap Closer. If I Nade you and run on over and you nade me to get distance again and it RESISTS. Its almost as good as a Repent.
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paladins want a gap closer? lol maybe if you have to give up divine shield to use it :expressionless:

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Yeah… people usually ask for either Long Arm of the Law (+move speed for a few seconds after a judgement I think?) Or TBC’s JoJ which reduced movement speed to 100% of Normal… so no +8% Boots speed… Druids ran normal in BG’s. Good Stuff.

I don’t like this idea despite how much I HATE druids in BG’s.

Druid vs Paladin is already a situation where Druid cannot kill a properly geared and Rune’ed Paladin. They just too tanky and mana efficient.

They also cannot win in a toe to toe fight… its not even close.

Giving Paladin the ability to slow them basically permanently while we hack them up seems excessive. Let them buzz around like bees while you hit the local wildlife for mana and out heal them. Seems better that way.

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Most PVP is not 1v1, not even in open world. And 1v1 PVP design has never and will never be the standard by which balance is maintained. It wasn’t and never will be. There’s a reason why duel tournaments have rulesets with multiple pages of what is and is not allowed based on subjective fairness.

This is the biggest lie ever told on these forums. That’s just not true at all.

And your decision to write a guide means what exactly in this context?

I don’t think you so much bothered to read my criticisms of your suggestion as you just completely ignored it. Doesn’t seem like you are interested in a discussion, have no desire to change your mind, so further discussion would be pretty fruitless here.

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I reasonable thought process but this is what causes the “Dance” and “Chess Game” of Classic WoW.

The main reason it works is do to Resists and Misses (as in missed a nade skill shot). Both Players are rolling so many Dice of RNG that the RNG both balances out AND leave both sides with a chance to win.

Matchups become Favored but NEVER 100%…

Lots of studies show that players need about a 30% win Rate to keep playing a game.

If I was looking to improve the system. I would want more skill shots like nades as well as resists… AND… I think the 6s to drop combat is BAD. Its 10s in TBC and on Private Servers.

It plays MUCH better, especially with stupid swapping addons out now I refuse to use less its serious.

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I agree with the premise that paladins should not have reliable gap close. From a vanilla perspective, paladins are intentionally handicapped against specific classes from a mobility perspective.

However, a lot of what I’m reading seems to be coming from an elitist hyper-fixated dueling perspective, and not from a more practical design perspective.

The vast majority of people engaged in world pvp or BGs aren’t hyper-utilizing consumables and profession items. To say that paladins don’t need gap close because Tidal Charm and Gnomish Net exist is missing the point. ALL classes have access to these tools and more to help even the playing field.

If it were the case that other classes didn’t receive significant mobility upgrades, I might be inclined to agree more in the case of SoD. But that’s not the case. Off the shorthand:

  • Mages get Displacement
  • Priests get dispersion which allows them to double cast Psychic Scream in many fights
  • Warriors can charge in combat, AND dispells movement impairing effects
  • Hunters can use traps in combat to create additional distance
  • Warlocks can run Felguard with Charge to create distance
  • More broadly, many many kiting classes have received substantially more instant cast abilities, making it far easier to kite indefinitely

With all of this in the game, I’d argue that it becomes a lot more reasonable for paladins to receive something to help close the gap. Personally I’ve advocated for Divine Steed because I think it’s a reasonable ability from a vanilla context and from a balance context. Getting our Crusader mount should surely reward us more than simply providing an objectively worse mount than the purchasable ones; Divine Steed would do that.

I do think that if Divine Steed was just plopped on the PTR paladin, it would make the class truly overpowered. But I already think the class is overtuned as is on PTR from a PvP perspective. But it’s hard to judge when we don’t have access to all the gear, and when the meta for all the classes hasn’t been figured out yet. And of course, numbers are subject to change prior to release.

With all that said, let me know what you think fellow paladin.

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