Paladins, both Retribution and Protection

“Imposing their views?” Looking at readily observable data and evidence and concluding that some specs are just mathematically inferior and choosing not to include them in your groups is not imposing anything.

You are totally free to play whatever spec you want. That doesn’t mean you are entitled to join a group when you’re playing a spec that doesn’t meet people’s expectations.

If anyone is trying to impose their views on others, it’s probably the people demanding that everyone else shut up about min/maxing and just invite Ret Paladins.

Actually, I have maintained throughout this conversation that not everyone will care, and in fact stated that most people wouldn’t:

However, the question was not “will these specs get invited?” The question was “Are they as bad as paladins claimed?” Since the specifics of those claims were not given, I can just assume the claim was that those specs were inferior, and the answer is yes, they were.

Nice strawman. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

No one is forcing anyone to play anything. If I choose not to invite a Ret Paladin to my raids, I’m not forcing them to play Holy.

Also, all 9 classes have a place in my raids. That doesn’t mean every spec does. There are a minimum of 4 Paladin slots in a 40 man raid, for all the blessings. However, those Paladins are most useful to the raid as Holy, because Prot and Ret bring nothing unique that has any use in a raid environment.

Then I’ll find another player who does. That’s how things work.

If I’m looking for a Mage, and I find a really great Ret Paladin, I’m not going to tell that Ret Paladin to play a Mage; I just don’t invite the Ret Paladin because that’s not what I want.

You seem to be under the false assumption that raid leaders are forcing people to play specs they don’t want to play. That’s not how it works.

Which is further proof that any private server is completely unreliable as evidence of how anything actually worked in vanilla and/or how it would work in Classic.

No one is demanding that they be invited, every one is free to do as they like. There is just no reason to call them worthless or carry fodder as they do carry their own weight. Do they do it entirely with dps? No. DPS meters are a flawed metric unless you are focused on one thing: time. Hybrids beat the necessary time needed. Therefor they are a net positive in that regard.

People care about dead weight. When something is described as dead weight they want to remove themselves from it. The reason they wouldn’t care is because they aren’t dead weight. Which means they aren’t being carried.

Sure, you can say yes. You would be stating a falsehood, but it wouldn’t be entirely incorrect. If the question is vague and you give a generalized answer, you are casting a wide net. Are paladins lacking in certain regards? Yes. Are they lacking in all situations in any of the roles? No.

Those 5 mages are so unique. What if the raid has plenty of healers? What if you don’t poach from other guilds? Their value goes way up.

No, you are the one making the false assumption as I said nothing about raid leaders. I am trying to right the misconceptions people use to make it easier to justify turning down other players and employ discrimination based on misinformation.

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Ret would have to have its own unique value to even have value to begin with. Other people can nightfall duty just as well if not better. If you have enough healers then why would you bring a hybrid designed to bring off healing and utiity if you need none?

No one who wants to progress timely on an authentic classic server will bring a ret. People had these stereotypes for a reason, we had almost all the same theory crafting then as we do now, just with better resources. There are plenty of archived pages that to be honest youtubers are just straight up copy pasting. Ill let you guess at which one does it the most and its not that Tips dude.

Why would anyone gear a Ret pally when a warrior brings more with the same gear? Especially if you Ret brings nothing that guild needs from them.

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Because there would only be one Ret out of 40? Ret does suck, but there won’t be more than one per raid if that.

Same with Prot (20/31/0). Realistically, one or two will be there but no more. They will have specific jobs independent of swinging a Nightfall, mainly involving Judgment of Light and keeping that running.

Again, RETS WERE HORRIBLE IN VANILLA. But they did have a use as a Nighfall swinger with your one Hunter.

PS–RETS WERE HORRIBLE IN VANILLA.

Did I mention that Ret was a godawful spec?

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I fully support the allowance of a single ret (and a single boomkin and feral). If your guild cant clear vanilla content with a ret and boomkin, then your doing something wrong. (I dont count feral tank as meme, its actually quite strong, and better than warrior on some bosses) There aren’t any true dps races hard enough that you would struggle while using 2 meme dps, and at the same time, the utility they bring could save lives from RNG deaths. BoP, BoS, extra aura, LOH, etc (and boomkin aura for casters, extra innervate, extra brez, etc)

That being said, scroll down the forums to find
A | CST | 7-11 pm | 2 days A Week, No Fri/SAT | Semi-hardcore
and join, we will be carrying…erm embracing one of each : Ret, Boomkin, Feral Tank (with dps offset), and spriest. No meme-spec positions have yet been filled. This was a shameless plug. “Rich Vos will be at the comedy cellar Fri-Sat two shows a night.”

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Fair more value with the balance and feral crit buff then having a paladin in ret spec. At least those crit buffs were passive and they player could just try their best.

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Absolutely. But those passive buffs only affect party, not raid. Nightfall affects the entire raid.

BUT…people approach threads like this thinking there will be 39 Rets and one very unfortunate Holy Priest. Nothing is further from the truth. EVen with a creative Paladin/Priest/Warlock only raid stack, it won’t be 39 Rets.

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You should count the increased dps/hps from the auras as part of the druid’s dps however, it helps close the gap more.

Why? Not like a decent raid wont have a
or two hpal, besides Sanc aura helpa almost no one.

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Talking druid auras in this case, which may be a bit off topic. Like counting the increased dps of the 4 mages in the boomkin’s party as the boomkin’s dps, when considering his contribution.

I remember Paladin being really OP and always powerfull in PvP… took forever to kill them. Most of the time I wouldnt even waste time trying to kill them in world pvp because it would take forever and they could only bubble heart.

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dude, go join the Tips Out army - like seriously you have no idea what you are even spewing out of your mouth…

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Thaddius and Loatheb say hello nub

Ret Paladin providing their groups AoE group heals wearing 8/8 Tier 1 while swinging Nightfall:

Lawbringer Armor is the Tier 1 Raid Set. It contains 8 pieces. Has set bonuses at 3, 5, and 8 pieces.

  • 3 pieces: [Increases the chance of triggering a Judgement of Light heal by 10%.]
  • 5 pieces: [Improves your chance to get a critical strike with spells by 1%.]
  • 5 pieces: [Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.]
  • 8 pieces: [Gives the Paladin a chance on every melee hit to heal your party for 189 to 211.]
    https://classic.wowhead.com/item-set=208/lawbringer-armor

TLDR - I top healing meters on those boss fights without casting a single heal and all while providing 40% Nightfall debuff uptime while using SoR/JoR.

Again, please git gud

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If you guys are really that against anything but meta, why enter these discussions?
Whats the point? You don’t need to preach the meta, people who care about those kinds of things will just google it anyways. Go enjoy your meta only groups.

I will raid with shadow priests, boomkins, ferals, prot pallies,ret pallies, etc. The content will still be cleared and im sure the raiding environment will be much more enjoyable.

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I am recruiting Paladins that want to play Prot for my Paladin guild.

I am positive we can figure out a way to threat swap. I think it is possible, it just takes communication. I think we can get it down to a science.

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Thats what you said word for word before. I fully support your decision to try this, I think its awesome. But you need to have more than hopes and dreams. Is it even mathematically possible to tank swap that fight without a taunt? Other fights, you just do it by threat management, careful uses of BoS, then removing salv…etc, but I don’t see how this can be done there. Do you have any ideas for making this work?

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Does anyone know how threat is managed with divine shield? Is it a temporary , a full or partial threat dump?

Also, healing causes threat if i recall correctly. Does judgement of light also cause threat? Is it increased with righteous fury? So many questions…Can’t wait to theory craft in game with everything.

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IIRC: temporary, but could be wrong, didnt play one.

I mained paladin throughout vanilla, i couldn’t remember it to save my life haha. I don’t think anyone could remember word for word from 14 years ago. If you could, bravo.

It’s easy and hard at the same time. You have your Tankadins each with a rank of Judgment of Light for additional healing aggro.

Tank 1 runs with the max rank. When it’s time to swap, Tank 1 will BUBBLE. All other Tankadins uprank their Seal of Light and judge it. Tank 1 then uses Seal of Light rank 1 and judges it when bubble wears off.

Rets will run with every rank of Crusader and Sanc Aura. A few SHOCKADINS will run with every rank of Wisdom. They don’t need to swap.

The last debuff spots are for Shadow Weaving (one SPriest) and either Imp Shadow Bolt or Nightfall.

BOOM! Paladin/Priest/Warlock raid.