I think, and again, I think that what he’s going for is make the baseline spell have slightly more pizzaz rather than a laundry list of stat modifiers buried in our talent trees.
All this…
…is nice. But when leveling or if these talents arent chosen, the base spell can feel less impactful.
I honestly wouldn’t mind if the Block chance or Parry chace buff was base line to the spell, then on leveling or Exile’s Reach intro people learning the spec could go. “Oh neat, I can use Avengers Shield as an Interrupt, but just hitting it gives me a small survivability buff. I’ll need to use this efficently to make sure I’m keeping the buff up but also not missing key interrupts”
This is probably way too much work for Blizz for admittedly minor improvements to leveling/spec intro feel.
I hear you, but how much Pizazz do base line abilities need? I think the visuals are fine since we already have so much visual bloat.
I can see your point about it can be confusing to new players, but the game in general is horrid for on boarding with any class or spec. Adding all of these modifiers to baseline would be too overpowered because then they would have to give us new talents on top of baking these in.
Efficiency or performance affects what consumers are willing to pay extra for.
The quality of the service that is provided by purchasing wow, after some time playing different specs to see what you like, is the efficiency and performance of the spec you like. Players opinions decide for them individually, how good or bad they feel after buying an expansion and subscription and what that service is worth to them.
In non-wow terms… some people enjoy the bang for the buck they get from a $20k 180hp automobile.
Other people are not satisfied with less than a $35k 480hp vehicle.
Some are not satisfied without adding $10k to the $35k cost for 850hp.
Some are not satisfied without adding $65k in parts to the $35k vehicle for 2000hp.
You can be satisfied by spec X as is, while someone else would perfer spec X change in some way to improve efficiency or performance. Both opinions are valid. The person who asked for an improvement, especially an improvement that was already on that spec recently, doesnt make the player bad. We all decide with our wallet what we are willing to buy. If I feel the experience playing Paladin not worth the financial cost, I wont buy it.
Stop trying to bring in completely unrelated things. It has a name. False equivalence.
So I’m going to completely ignore 2/3 of what you wrote and only address what’s actually on topic.
Yes, fun is subjective and on the individual. That’s why we have so many flavors of tanking. There is no one size fits all and Paladin has one of the highest APM required to play. If this isn’t your style then there are slower classes to play. The fact is that we generate enough Holy Power right now with 11.0.5s CDr and Haste values to have what we need, but not so much that we can forget about it. You need to think about the buttons you are pressing and not just spending HP mindlessly. This is how it should be to express skill.
I also didn’t say the OP was a bad player so you re fully putting words in my mouth with that one.
Yeah, I don’t see this as either of us being wrong. That’s just like, your opinion man.
I like Prot is high(enough) APM.
I never liked lacking MS, disarm, instant mobility, general dispell (once that pvp talent was deleted), most defensives failing to function carrying an ord/crystal/flag, taking extra damage just because it is a tank spec in pvp, AND AS no longer granting holy power.
There’s not a thing wrong with me having the opinion that Avenger Shield granting holy power feels good. You’re welcome not to want it to, you are welcome not to think it should, but there’s no purpose for you to tell me I’m wrong when it’s just an opinion.
I never said that the spec was completely unfunctional. It might be the worst spec in pvp for obvious reasons, but it’s supposedly the greatest tank for m+ right now which is cool.(as mentioned I dont M+ now that my opinion is M+ is less fun than previously).
Divine Toll isn’t fun to press? It’s a damage cooldown that grants holy power. If I use it then it allows me to follow up with my Hammer of Light and its HP requirement, which is arguably the most satisfying damage ability in the game right now.
Honestly ret is like “Ok What ability isn’t on cd right now?” Either way, it’s way better than something like Divine Hammer, which feels literally unfun to press. Especially if you fatfinger it and then can’t play Hammer of Light because all your holy power is being slowly drained.
Divine Toll is instant, grants resource, and deals quality damage. It is the definition of “fine.”
I’m very discouraged with the game and my main class, holy paladin.
I’m a PvP (melee wings) player, and with each update, Blizzard makes specialization unfeasible. occasional nerfs that the paladin community pretends not to see, (note the poor engagement on this topic, which I consider important)
Blizzard came up with the idea of "customizing" your class… as long as you play just how we want.
These nerfs, seemingly small as many content creators say, directly affect the construction of melee wings. slowly but progressively making it unviable, especially in pvp.
There are so many things I’d like to say about this “customization” Blizzard version. But for now, I agree with the author of the topic on practically everything pointed out. Because without engagement from the paladin community, we will be, as we say in my country, punching at the tip of a knife.
Gonna put my 2-cents into the discussion after reading for a bit.
starting with cssa/cs/ts discussion. I think it needs to be more clear on what skill to use baised on build/stat weights. It seems cssa is a winner for haste baised builds, while TS is a winner on heavy crit builds. Maybe the options for these ought to be in middle of the tree rather then the left hand side, with left/right sides having crit/haste friendly talents to help deferentiate the playstyles better.
choice node for jv/fv/tv should be more valid of a choice node. The initial damage should be the same, and they should work on our tier sets that focuses on the single target spenders (there has been a few in df that did not work with tv/jv) JV needs a redesign, making it an incentive, but should remain a melee skill to give ret a choice between some range build and melee builds.
Jurisdiction should be removed or turned into a choice node with a instant gap closure to make it a choice between melee/range builds.
dusk/dawn talents should be removed and the damage put into spenders for a talent with more interesting mechanics, as right now it is just a boring passive you must take.
Can we have judgements old animation back with the custom glyphs?
I feel burning crusade effects very little for the talent. Where as blades of light effects more skills.
I think es and FR being a choice node may not be a good thing, they do 2 different things, but if they must be choice nodes then the cd’s and damage they deal needs to be better balanced
searing light procs too little even with mastery helping it. It’s and end cap talent, it should do more.
radiant glory adds too much to wake, and makes us lose our most iconic CD. I think it should be redesigned to not include our wings or delete it and put the new divine hammers there… and if so maybe Fr could be a choice node with it to seperate es/fr since they serve different functions.
if radiant glory is to stay, then maybe wings ought to be baseline with radiant glory becoming a choice node between crusade/base wings.
divine toll is just a self buff that makes our charecter spam one of our skills baised on spec. It’s bland. Could this be redesigned into something more interesting?
what is unique to paladins? What seperates us from warriors (prot/ret) or any other class? Monks fights with their fists, warlocks and hunters has pets, death knight raises undead and can make anti magic barriers for examples. What do paladins have visually that makes us feel paladin?
For a class that was created in lore to be front line fighters, we lack allot of things to make us feel like we are supposed to know how to use weaponry or any martial mastery. Paladins leans too far into their priest halves then their warrior halves.
Seals should make a return in my opinion, but the system needs a revamp if seal twisting is not to be intended.
if we are not allowed to heal like S-priests, then what should paladins specailty be? Our blessings is practically useless in raid settings or large scale pvp.
speaking of pvp, paladins pvp talents needs to he looked at. Most is outdated and throught pvp talent history we had more pvp talents removed then added.
another thing for pvp, we are heavily pvp modified on our skills, as well as our self buffs easily removed, can this be looked at?
HP is too readily gained for ret now, so mych it normally causes us to over cap without noticing. Maybe hp generation needs to be toned down a bit for ret and spenders to be buffed accordingly.
You don’t teleport your not a Rouge or Mage. Even if you did you would need to give up something fairly powerful to gain such an ability as getting away from a paladin would be all but impossible. I’m sorry you’re not going to like this but you are not thinking in terms of balance asking for an instant gap closer. I mean hey I would love something like that on Warriors but it would be silly for me to just teleport to someone and have the game say “Omae wa mou Shindeiru” can you not see how busted that would be?
It’s not instant. You can be CCed on the charge just like how you can be CCed on the pony unless you freedom first. Come on I know I’m posting on my warrior but I have a Ret so I know how it feels to play both. Ret is in a good spot right now they aren’t the top but they certainly aren’t at the bottom either. Be happy for thar as you’re not looking down the barrel of a nerf bat flying at you, like Colossus currently is.
This guy wants to ruin the game by making one class, his class, so OP a 5 year old can play it and kill anyone in PvP.
You need to realize that what you’re asking for makes your class broken. Blizz is already catering to your class by making it a mid range melee with no resource management - easy mode.
Go play a single player game and build your paladin. WOW is a MMO, it needs to stay balance.
If you’re not happy with the visuals of paladins, it’s time you go play one of the classes you think have such good class fantasy visuals.
There are a lot of other classes that have no fancy visuals, yet they don’t whine on the forums.
Yeah, we weren’t thinking of making it actually instant like shadow step or shadowstrike, more like a short duration animation to bring us there, like intervene or charge, but by way of eliminating steed, not in addition to it, like also having Heroic Leap. We’re not looking for near instant mobility and total mobility at the amount of warrior, rogue, demon hunter, monk, mage, evoker, hunter, warlock, ect ect ect, just something to get us a little bit closer. Getting stunned on the way to the target would still be possible, like dealing with a demon hunter leaping or dashing, or using The Hunt, but it would be nice to have something that moves us faster than steed so it’s harder to counter with fear and other stops.
But why get rid of steed? It’s iconic and it’s just the more golden version of the DKs Riders ability which your not seeing DKs complain about. Hell to be honest it’s better than charge as you control where it goes and can use it any time it’s off cooldown. Charge on the other hand requires a target and once you charge something your committed to that path.