Interesting point about Bloodlust, is the seal GCD considered a spell GCD? If so that leaves you .01 seconds of leeway if you have drums active so it will be tight with a 3.6 weapon but still comfortable at 3.8. Outside bloodlust, you also loose the ability to use Judgement below 3.0 AS.
Yeah, conveniently enough it is considered a spell.
I hope bidirectional twisting is an option for people. I’m personally going to buck the trend and go haste demon. Just with what’s available in phase 1 you can operate at 30%+ average haste. You also gain roughly the same benefit when considering haste’s effect on Windfury damage. That works out to about an additional 7.5% wd per auto cycle. This leaves haste stacking about 5-10% behind seal twisting but completely chill playstyle wise. 
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Wait i’m confused, so sob/soc twist still works but trying to twist other seals doesn’t?
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Currently on the beta, you can only twist from SoC/SoR -> Another seal. Any seal besides those two cannot be your starting seal. So SoC -> SoB works. SoB -> SoC does not.
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Wtf that’s dumb… it needs to be like how it was in tbc.
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supposedly that is how it worked in tbc, but not how it worked early in beta. they pushed throug a patch that fixed the way seal of blood deals its damage which simultaneously broke it to where you couldnt twist from any seal except righteousness/command
the discussion is more “why it should be the way it was in early beta even though thats not how it was in tbc”
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Yeah. If they keep it single direction, you will only be able to twist half your swings and still maintain CS. This drops twisting down to ~20% increase in auto cycle dps which will get blown out of the water by haste stacking. Which is why i’m hoping the people who want to twist get bidirectional twisting even though it’s not truly tbc-like.
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If anyone wants pure pwnage in PvE, reroll Warlock or Hunter.
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exactly. which is why this change everyone is asking for really shouldnt be an issue. ret paladins are ret paladins and will be just average at best until wotlk
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I don’t mind them buffing you guys some, and seeing rets have a little hope was cute for a while. But now you guys are starting to get ideas. Nerf paladins. TO THE GROUND
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Meh, stopped reading after this.
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dont hate homie
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Two directional Twisting please and thank you.
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It’s not a huge problem if there are alternate options (haste stacking vs twisting, of which twisting still wins because it doesn’t stop working until haste levels you can’t get with our best 2h options). Bidirectional twisting makes twisting always correct to such a degree that you don’t even need to be doing it particularly well to be ahead of standard rotations.
You can still twist for dps gains when at high haste levels. It only becomes impossible in 1 way twisting below 1.5 speed. You just can’t do it every swing, which isn’t a big deal.
At all levels of attainable haste, 1 way twisting is more dps than the standard rotation. Bidirectional twisting is in no way required for twisting to remain a viable option.
Kinda cringe to read that but still would rather they keep bidirectional twisting in the game. Better for raids, better for paladins, worse for…who?
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If there is a desire to keep twisting in-game in any capacity, 1 way or otherwise, and the decision needs to be made whether to allow two-way twisting, it might help to consider that two-way will significantly deprioritize pallies getting things like DST and will reduce competition for this extremely powerful trinket, as it will be far too easy to get haste hardcapped on a 2-way twist rotation.
Not that it won’t be good for pallies, but it’d be overall less impactful for them, and under many cases a dps loss. 2-way twisting allows more gearing thoughtfulness and an interesting theorycrafting mechanic for rets, without being “broken” by any stretch of the imagination.
Nevermind the fact that the 1-way rotation is clunky and relatively unfun, and the 2-way rotation has a certain smoothness to it.
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It’s not really a hard cap, more of a breakpoint.
The benefits of being at 3.0 speed are back again at 1.5 (and other speeds when spell haste is going around like from bloodlust), and even at accelerated speeds that make you lose some seal twists to do things like crusader strike, haste is still giving you significant gains to your base white and seal dps, and makes your other twists closer together, which counteracts the lost twists.
You just don’t want to go SLIGHTLY past that breakpoint. Going far beyond it isn’t much of an issue.
I’m in complete support with 2 way twisting based on blizzards blue post, based on SoR working two ways with SoC and lastly based on #somechanges. The argument of it not being true to original TBC is irrelevant, otherwise Ally would not be getting Seal of Martyr and there would not be any changes to drums.
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Fair, probably should call it a softcap where the rotation has to change. In some cases it changes for a net dps loss due to losing 1:1 twisting, but at extremes the gain is still worth it… i.e. with haste gear, haste proc, and under bloodlust. It would be hard to argue that under that many buffs you werent still net positive.
However, often times the bloodlusts will be chained on a lock or hunter group, or at the minimum the ret pally isn’t a great target for it. Additionally, the mileage other classes get out of a haste proc like DST means that the most efficient path for the raid could still likely be a ret that targets a 3.0 speed and avoids haste procs.
Its a bit of an aside from my primary point, which is 1-way twisting is relatively crappy-feeling and unfun.
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