“we dont like it” got drums nerfed.
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Change trains coming man all aboard
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Yes, there will be more changes, but the developers also said what their parameters are for changes. It isn’t a well defined parameter, but it still is one.
Yes, you are correct, it it a full change to the damage dealing style of paladins.
No it isn’t. Neither of them are doing hunter/lock DPS either. If they were near the top of the damage meters, sure, but they aren’t.
The original intent was that individual profession perks were just that, perks. Not something that pushed everyone to take the profession. It was overbuffed, and blizzard changed it at the next patch (WotLK) after it became apparent how much it pushed people into the profession.
Correct, but they explicitly decided to allow it. This is a better argument for removing twisting entirely rather than expanding it though.
It’s hard to tell if this was intent or limitation of the buff. World buffs weren’t particularly used for much in classic, so there wasn’t much focus on them by the developers.
I keep making it because it is the barrier you are facing to convince the developers to do what you want. If you can’t overcome that argument, it’s unlikely you will get 2 way twisting to happen. In each of the referenced cases the current developers have decided that it follows the original intent or spirit of the game at the time.
I don’t agree with all of them, but that’s the line in the sand.
There’s a difference between agreeing with a change, and not wasting time fighting it.
I don’t agree with putting in paid character copies to stay in classic, or paid character boosts for TBC, but it’s a waste of my time to spend time complaining about them as those decisions seem pretty much fixed.
I’m against 2 way twisting, but I’d deal with it if blizzard put it in and let it go live. I argue against it because the state of their twisting band-aid was/is in flux. I do not know how much they plan to continue tweaking it, so I put forth arguments that show that it likely does cross over what the developers consider to be the “spirit/intent of TBC,” as that’s the metric that they use to evaluate changes.
You don’t need to agree that it does, or does not violate the spirit of TBC, only they do.
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One change that would make much more sense would be adding holy/nature damage to curse of elements, this would make hybrids feel way less dumpy than they are without breaking the game.
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That’s quite a bit of extra DPS (10%). Would that push melee classes further down the list of classes to bring, because they have way less utility?
There are multiple examples of how this just isn’t true. Chronoboons, Ranged AP in vanilla from dragonslayer and DM, Twisting (1-way) . None of these are in the spirit of the game. This opens up hundreds of possibilities. Two way twisting has already worked (PTR) so we know that it’s not a change where additional and lengthy code needs to be developed.
I’m really tired of replying to your saying the same exact thing in defiance of fact. This is not a thread about something being broken that existed before in live. We’re asking for a QOL change after they asked for feedback on this exact topic. It’s really not out of line in any respect and you’re actively trying to stop us from providing the feedback to blizzard that they asked for.
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You are asking for a QoL change, and even said you would take a reduction in damage to get it (i still don’t agree with that change because that’s not how it worked in TBC).
I have not heard that from most other people. I do hear “it won’t change the meta”, “we still won’t top the meters”, “it doesn’t change the arena meta”, “it doesn’t hurt anyone in dungeons or raids, its good for everyone!”. “it’s clunky and isn’t easy to do!”
The last one is funny because they mentioned that twisting will set them apart from “bad paladins”, but want the twisting to be easier to do. What most of them mean is “it’s a DPS boost, and i’m ok with my class getting more DPS”.
I am not trying to stop you from providing the feedback. I can’t do that.
I just point out that what you are asking for is a change, and not a small one, and that I don’t agree with it.
You keep saying that they asked for feedback, and you are correct, they did, but the full sentence of the feedback request was:
It wasn’t a “do you like this”? style question.
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It would be 10% if the damage was 100% holy.
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I was thinking more along the lines of shaman haha. This would be a straight up 10% DPS increase for them.
Well, we had a lot of people come on here that started discussing it without reading the rest of the thread. There is one thing that I think needs responded to though.
On the idea of “If this then why not everything else?” The answer is why we all love Classic WoW.
Classic is a straight up game. You find a group, you experience the open world, you zug zug raids and dungeons, partake in a little PVP, and get rare loot. Anything that contributes to why we love Classic I’m good with entertaining as a part of #somechanges.
That includes the hunter macro, dual spec, and two-way twisting.
It does not include.
Store Items - Takes the prestige out of what you acquire on your journey.
Character Boosts - Removes the adventure, social interaction, and your personal experience with your class and character. It also rewards people who have money to throw away.
Transmog - It’s a large distraction from engaging with the community and focusing on the adventure.
If you look at what the overall community dislikes, you’ll find that it’s two things: distractions and the ability to pay to bypass meaningful content.
Two-way twisting is not an offender of these items. It adds depth and contributes to engagement with the game.
I would dare to say it even bolsters a point that Blizzard attempted way back in the early days of Vanilla. Blizzard so loved the seal system that they took Crusader Strike away from paladins to highlight seals due to their belief in the system. Two way twisting truly deserves that hype.
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So did Shaman Dual WF without an internal cooldown…and they nerfed it before it went live in TBC. It only existed on PTR and live servers during TBC pre patch.
The entire idea of having a Test Server…is to test stuff. Putting something on PTR is not a declaration of intent or an unspoken promise from Blizzard.
That’s not it.
First of all it lowers the skill ceiling by allowing bi-directional twisting in the first place. It’s smoother because its easier and less challenging.
However besides the gains in DPS are the mana savings bi-directional provides…and that WILL translate into additional DPS gains on top of DPS gains from twisting.
Mana is a limiting resource for Paladins until Wrath, in addition to GCD management due to seal twisting constraints. Mana and GCD’s determine our ability to use combat pots instead of mana pots, how consistent and often twisting takes place, and even how often Paladins can use secondary DPS abilities like Exorcism.
Bi-directional twisting won’t vault Rets to the top of the meters. However it would affect raid composition if a guild could realistically bring 2 Rets…one in the tank group and one in the melee group.
I’m not opposed to the change…but lets not pretend this isn’t more than just a QoL issue. It will affect Arenas and Raids by helping address a Ret Paladin weakness.
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youre right. putting something on ptr isnt declaration of intent. declaring intent is declaration of intent.
Paladin seals will now persist on the Paladin for a very short time after they’re replaced by a different seal.
Developers’ notes: The concept of “seal twisting” was only possible due to spell batching. With a greatly reduced batch size, we’re adding a slight buffer when you swap seals to allow you to proc two in the same swing This was not an intended interaction in Original WoW, but it’s a fun quirk of WoW Classic gameplay, and we want to allow Paladins to retain the ability to do this. Please let us know how this compares on the PTR to how seal twisting currently works on live realms."
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Context matters.
Unidirectional Twisting on PTR exists as it did originally…or as close as they could accomplish.
For a brief time Bi-directional existed on PTR while they played with underlying mechanics to accomplish that end.
They didn’t declare their intent on bi-directional twisting, you were never told you would have it, they never went back on their word, and they adequately communicated their intent concerning this.
Ever other argument is pure semantics.
If you want the change, I understand that too.
However Blizzard made no promise about a newly introduced means of twisting, ie dual twisting, going live in a way in which never previously existed.
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you’re right - they made no promises either way and it’s all up for interpretation
SO CMON MAN COME HAVE SOME FUN don’t be a wet towel
lol
I have no problem with bi-directional twisting.
My objection is when people state that it’s just a Quality of Life issue, when its more than that.
It would cut the mana cost of twisting in half. In addition it would also allow more GCD use for things like Judging every other cooldown when JoB can be used as opposed to rank 1 Command.
The big change would be Arenas. As a Ret you wouldn’t have to prep your burst like you do now by leading with Command and again it would be a major mana savings.
In 2’s and 3’s mana issues in some comps are a Ret’s primary weakness. I’m not sure if that was intended or not…so I can’t really speak for Blizzard on that.
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I don’t think I ever alluded to anything other than the facts in any of my posts, and have been consistent about my personal opinion on the subject - I’ve said it was my opinion when it was, and I’ve laid out facts where they existed.
I appreciate your well reasoned reply! I agree with your assessment about mana being an issue and I’m not going to lie and say that there are no benefits aside from a pure parsing perspective. I don’t pvp (and don’t really plan to) so that’s never been a focus for me on why I’d like 2-way twisting; the ability to plan major cooldowns and consumables is another minigame to me. One way twisting definitely makes that far less optimizable and consistent.
My only issue is that #nochanges isn’t a thing. Anyone still pushing that (prevalent in this thread) is not contributing to the discussion and just wants to virtue signal. If nobody asks for a thing, it’s not likely we’ll get it. I hope that makes sense.
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It won’t have any major effect on pvp, having to load up command is hardly an issue. Sure here or there it’ll save a GCD but it’s not the meat and potatoes. Wf is. Reckoning is. And twisting even one direction is enough for pvp because pvp allows for macros and flexibility in timing. Really the only thing I want is for the PvE boost. One way just doesn’t make sense, in my opinion it always should have gone both ways. It just doesn’t make sense to have it halfway in-between and it’s so much less fun
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stop spamming this post already.
They’re not going to do class balance changes, because that opens a giant can of worms. Rebalancing and everyone else asking for buffs.
Everyone will bring a ret.
If all you care about is the dmg meter, then play hunter or lock.
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Still bugged, grace period when switching seals applying to some seals but not others.
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