Paladin Dual Twisting: Leave It In!

[Jimmíhustler-sulfuras]

@Thelawgiverr-bleeding-hollow

Blizzard, you find yourself tied by your own hands now that you took on the issue of spell batching and decided to get rid of it.

All I see is someone using an unintended mechanic. There do not have any reason to keep it in if this wasn’t the way they wanted them to work. No ones hands are tied especially because the spell batching fix was in retail too.

[Djdankboi-lightbringer]

Intended mechanic - they wanted to added, it was working for a while, and then they broke it in a later change.
"Paladin seals will now persist on the Paladin for a very short time after they’re replaced by a different seal.

• Developers’ notes: The concept of “seal twisting” was only possible due to spell batching. With a greatly reduced batch size, we’re adding a slight buffer when you swap seals to allow you to proc two in the same swing. This was not an intended interaction in Original WoW, but it’s a fun quirk of WoW Classic gameplay, and we want to allow Paladins to retain the ability to do this. Please let us know how this compares on the PTR to how seal twisting currently works on live realms."

[Lychslap-cenarion-circle]

@Djdankboi-lightbringer

The concept of “seal twisting” was only possible due to spell batching.

Correct, the seals you could twist in TBC, you can currently twist. It’s working as it did in TBC.

[Noobshot-benediction]

if seal twisting was in original TBC i support seal twisting.

So i expect the paladins to also support the hunter shot/skills macroing.

[Lychslap-cenarion-circle]

@Noobshot-benediction

if seal twisting was in original TBC i support seal twisting.

It’s working exactly like it did in TBC. They want it to do something that wasn’t in TBC. There is a difference.

[Thelawgiverr-bleeding-hollow]

Honestly we do, we just don’t want to derail the thread

[Smeet-sulfuras]

@Noobshot-benediction

if seal twisting was in original TBC i support seal twisting.

So i expect the paladins to also support the hunter shot/skills macroing.

A form of twisting similar to how it worked in TBC is currently on the beta.

Paladins in here are asking for the twisting mechanics to be reworked into a form they prefer.

And yes, your macros should be brought back, lest TBC classic becomes a massive QoL loss for the hunter class.

[Auras-thrall]

yup. we do. just this isnt the thread for that.

[Jimmíhustler-sulfuras]

So seal twisting is in the game, you just don’t get a piss easy 400ms window to do it?

So what is your complaint here then?

[Smeet-sulfuras]

They want to be able to twist from any seal to any other seal, rather than being limited to certain seals like it was in TBC.

[Jimmíhustler-sulfuras]

Ok, Simple answer: No, there is no reason to allow this.

[Dyehead-destromath]

I feel like the arguments both ways have settled on the same repeating theme here lately and there hasn’t been much by way of meeting in the middle.

We’ve established the following pro-dual way arguments quite well:

• 1-way rotation is super clunky and unfun
• Leaving twisting in forces all competitive ret players to twist and use a clunky non-rotation
• Blizzard is not afraid to buff underperforming classes or change mechanics, see Dragonslayer + DM buffs giving AP to hunters for a massive DPS boost in p6.
• The meta for class composition in raids will not change with 2-way twisting.
• Our DPS is super low and two-way twisting won’t impact meters as much as people claim outside of very specific fights where we stand still and can fully optimize all of our CDs
• Twisting is fun with all seals and makes everything more enjoyable, including questing and grinding mobs.
• High levels of haste make 1-way twisting even worse and more clunky. Haste is a primary stat for paladins in later phases
• #nochanges doesn’t exist. In the tinnitus patch notes from yesterday,

@Kaivax

Over the first few weeks of testing in the Burning Crusade Beta, we’ve found it useful to elaborate on and bolster the “some changes” philosophy that we expressed at BlizzConline (and in posts like this one 128). As we’ve said, we’re open to making further alterations to Burning Crusade Classic

The most prevalent anti-2 way twist arguments, some are actual nonsense but I want to show the stark contrast between the for and against position (Note I actually agree with some of the against but quite a few of them are absolutely just curmudgeonly and exist to shut down the discussion, and should be summarily ignored):

• Ret is supposed to be at the bottom, paying the hybrid tax (cough shamans)
• Ret have such huge raid utility that their DPS should be lower (cough shamans)
• The meta is going to change because rets will be OP
• Rets will now beat hunters and warlocks, their damage is going to go up 25+%
• 2-Way twisting will be super powerful in pvp
• If blizzard wanted to keep it in they wouldn’t have removed it on the Beta
• Blizzard never intended twisting to be in, so be happy that you even have 1 way
• When they asked for feedback it wasn’t about two-way twisting, they wanted to know if 1-way twisting was still working as it was.
• Gear choices will be affected with stat priority adjustment around optimizing haste
• Blizzard is bad at patch notes and the original note about all seals and twisting was a mistake
• Blizzard sets the meta so we have no place to make requests

So if you take a look at both sides, it’s pretty clear that one is constructive discussion, and the other (for the most part) is just trying to stop the conversation entirely by not addressing what the key request is and why most of us want two-way twisting.

These anti-twisters target the folks who brag about their arena accomplishments in vanilla tbc and formulate an argument against ‘buffing’ a class instead of understanding what the actual issue is behind the request and responding to the key points.

[Thelawgiverr-bleeding-hollow]

Blues please read this

[Jimmíhustler-sulfuras]

So by this logic, creating completely new mechanics that didn’t exist before, for no reason other than “I want them” we should also add Dual Spec, Transmog as well as Barber shop “because I want them”

[Lychslap-cenarion-circle]

@Dyehead-destromath

Ret is supposed to be at the bottom, paying the hybrid tax (cough shamans)

No, ret should be where ret was in TBC, because it’s TBC.

@Dyehead-destromath

Ret have such huge raid utility that their DPS should be lower (cough shamans)

No, Ret should be where Ret is at, because that is how it was in TBC.

@Dyehead-destromath

The meta is going to change because rets will be OP

No, Ret should be where Ret is at, because that’s how it was in TBC.

@Dyehead-destromath

Rets will now beat hunters and warlocks, their damage is going to go up 25+%

No Ret should be where Ret was in TBC.

@Dyehead-destromath

2-Way twisting will be super powerful in pvp

No Ret should PvP like they PvPed in TBC.

@Dyehead-destromath

If blizzard wanted to keep it in they wouldn’t have removed it on the Beta

This is true, if it was intended, they wouldn’t have removed it. You want it back.

@Dyehead-destromath

Blizzard never intended twisting to be in, so be happy that you even have 1 way

It’s being implemented in the game as it was. It was unintentional mechanic and they are staying true to the mechanic that was in.

@Dyehead-destromath

When they asked for feedback it wasn’t about two-way twisting, they wanted to know if 1-way twisting was still working as it was.

They asked for how it feels, they never said “how does it feel with using all seals vs specific seals”. The original twist was with specific seals, and after they patched out all seals.

@Dyehead-destromath

Gear choices will be affected with stat priority adjustment around optimizing haste

This is true.

@Dyehead-destromath

Blizzard is bad at patch notes and the original note about all seals and twisting was a mistake

Blizzard wasn’t specific in the patch notes. So yea, they are bad at wording. For the forums, they need to be super specific because you get something like this.

@Dyehead-destromath

Blizzard sets the meta so we have no place to make requests

No, the game is supposed to be like TBC. They are making specific changes for balance, not to increase the power of specific classes.

@Dyehead-destromath

So if you take a look at both sides, it’s pretty clear that one is constructive discussion, and the other (for the most part) is just trying to stop the conversation entirely by not addressing what the key request is and why most of us want two-way twisting.

You dismiss opposing views because you have a personal bias because you want it.

[Dyehead-destromath]

These mechanics did exist on the PTR for a short while. Sorry if you’re new to this discussion.

[Jimmíhustler-sulfuras]

Ok, how is that relevant? It’s the PTR LOL

[Dyehead-destromath]

@Lychslap

#nochanges nonsense

Shining example of the curmudgeonly behavior.

You mystically ignore that Blizzard has embraced #somechanges. They changed Vanilla numerous times (actual balance), they just changed drums yesterday and literally said that they will make more before release. Open your eyes.

[Auras-thrall]

we’re asking for what blizzard said theyre giving us and did give us.

this change does not effect anyone that isnt playing a paladin, will not change the meta at all. if you dont intend to play a paladin you dont really have much of a reason to be here other than to muddy the water.

[Thelawgiverr-bleeding-hollow]

surely you realize that 50% of your “witty” (rofl) replies were “#nochanges” but with more words, which has never been the case