ok then now its time for hunter fixes then.
The fact is, regardless of what is in Beta NOW, their own wording says you should be able to Twist any Seal you like with another. Their words. The fact that in PTR at first you could also Twist RANKS of SoC means they haven’t settled yet. They changed that. For all we can ascertain for certain fixing that (which appears to have been unintended) broke the twist pattern we want between SoC/SoM. As they haven’t SAID anything about it, we can only take their word for their intent. And their word indicates all Seals.
No other argument genuinely can be made against it. They said “Paladin Seals.” There’s no qualifier. So either they accomplish their stated goal, like we ask them to, or they SAY something else. If they never say anything, then they have broken their word. Again.
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Have you seen the pretzel smeet made with himself yet? Lol
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all tied up 
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This is simply wrong. You are looking at twisting in a vacuum again. Yes, if you only compare a twisted auto to a non-twisted auto the results are always twisted > non-twisted. You are failing to recognize that to execute the twisting rotation you are also not doing other things that have damage values attached to them.
If you drop below the 3.0 threshold, you lose any free GCDs you would otherwise have. No bombs, no drums, no consecrate, and no exorcism for you. On top of having 0 open GCDs you also end up delaying Judgement by roughly 33% (4+ seconds every CD window).
Judgement of blood with only the +damage from Jotc is worth about 98 dps. The delay caused by the twisting rotation is a LOSS of ~33 dps versus the normal rotation. Consecrate with just Jotc is worth 114.8 dps at Rank 6 (admittedly a mana hog at 82.5 m/s) but still 64 dps at Rank 3 at 36.25 m/s. Bombs are worth 10-20 dps, while being part of the drum rotation is worth 5.07% haste to your entire group (you have to choose since they share a cooldown in tbc). Exorcism is worth 50 dps on its own if applicable to the target. On average you are looking at dropping 150-200 dps from the non-twisting rotation.
If haste stacking you will be operating at an average AS of ~2.9 over a 3 minute fight. This is only taking into account the sources of haste available in phase 1, this is not a “but in sunwell” argument. That’s an average AS, your AS can drop as low as 2.25 depending on proc alignment. At that speed it is nearly impossible to twist unless you spend every other twisting cycle sitting in command and not blood which is another dps loss compared to the normal rotation. At that speed you also lose the ability to use Judgement completely further exacerbating the dps loss from judgement.
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wait what are you talking about with this? hunter damage has been consistantly 25%-50% higher than a ret paladins damage in every single phase.
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I’m not failing to recognize this. You are putting too much stock in players messing it up.
Sure, you don’t twist if you are bad at it. Other than that, so long as you can watch a swing timer a little bit and hit a button within .5s of a reset, it’s always a gain.
It is typically only replacing rotational dead time anyway, as consecration is often too expensive to use, and exorcism is not universally applicable.
Yes, twisting badly is a dps loss. Doing it correctly never is.
No, you end a swing in blood, swap to command at swing start, and swap to blood within .5s of the swing end.
It is impossible to twist every swing. It is not impossible to twist at all, hence why it is always superior to a standard rotation. You don’t need to be doing it every swing, just enough to outvalue exorcism and consecration. The better your weapon gets, the fewer twists that takes.
On patchwerk style fights a perfectly optimized ret can catch a hunter in Naxx had hunters not gained the AP buff to world buffs. The top ret and hunter parses on patch really are not all that far off.
It doesn’t seem like you spent enough time reading through my post. The scenarios I listed in the post you are replying to actually assume perfect play. At no point did I mention the impact of improper play on comparative dps. It’s a little disappointing that it seems you are opting to invoke some type of “git good” argument. Twisting isn’t hard.
I highly recommend creating some time sequences of the twisting rotation at various attack speeds as I think the effort would be very illuminating for you. You will see how the items I listed simply do not fit in the twisting rotation as well as understand the loss of dps from skill delay. This equates out to a roughly 100-150 dps opportunity cost when comparing a twisted rotation to a normal rotation. These are activities that can be done by the normal rotation but are not available while twisting.
Even under perfect circumstances, once you drop below 3.0 AS the .5 second window get crowded due to GCD overrun with many twisting windows being reduced to .3 seconds and sometimes even lower. You also have windows that you simply can’t twist further reducing the general gain from twisting. The reason you spend an auto window sitting in SoC is to gain access to Judgement and to be able to twist on the following auto. This avoids spending 2 consecutive windows without a twist while limiting the judgement delay in the cycle.
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Twisting has a higher damage value than any other button press (or pair of them in the case of 1 way twisting), so the only way you are likely going to find that twisting does not exceed a normal rotation is when the player is actively messing up on the twists.
The windows where you can’t twist or CS aren’t all that important when comparing twisting vs. not twisting. Yes, you lose free GCDs, but most twisting optimized speeds are aiming to minimize/eliminate other GCD use anyway due to twisting having a higher value.
Further increasing haste does have some odd effects on the timing of things, for example, when I plot out a rotation at 2.6 speed every 7th swing has no twists or CS going on, but even with the minor skill delays the totals are still are going to end up a higher value than had you used an exorcism and consecration in that window of time.
You don’t need to be in SoC to judge. The best time to judge is when you are planning to swap to SoC, as it doesn’t use a GCD and removes the seal of blood that you were about to remove anyway by activating SoC. There’s no reason to ever sit in SoC for an auto swing and miss a blood hit. You judge + apply SoC at a swing start that you wish to twist on.
SoC should never be the seal left on alone at the end of a swing. You just leave blood on until you have an opportunity to swap to command with enough time left to immediately swap back to blood before the swing ends. If you can’t twist for a swing, you want to be hitting with blood, not command.
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Wrong. A scuffed up attempt to twist any direction is absolutely below a standard smoothbrain nontwist rotation any day of the week
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Duh, that’s why I prefaced the whole thing with “rets that do it properly” are always ahead.
Of course if you are getting no value out of your twists (or negative value by leaving SoC as the only seal) you will see losses.
Please fix this Blizzard! What we currently have with only Seal of Command and Seal of Righteousness able to twist feels artificial. It’s not even similar to how twisting has worked in classic up until this point. Before batching was removed seal of crusader was able to be twisted.
This implementation is weird… Since it’s already a choice to make this change, I don’t understand why it’s implemented in a clunky and weakened state. Please honor the blue post and let all seals twist!
Hunters and Warlocks will still outdps us with their horribly simple rotations. All way seal twisting deepens the possibilities for paladin mechanics, lets us have more competetive DPS, and makes the class much more fun.
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It also makes leveling more fun! Out in the open world you can find yourself in many different situations where you want to tap into your Seal Toolkit in different ways than you would in a raid.
Allowing all Seals including light, wisdom, and justice to twist will improve the leveling and open world play of every paladin. Not just retribution paladins in a raid setting.
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Call JG TWISTWORTH, 877-twist-now
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Please leave twisting in for all seals! It’s how it should be and it was your stated intention in the PTR notes.
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Twice! TWICE!!
blizz pls fix pls
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Being able to twist all seals and not just some specific seals would be great!
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Still broken
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You mean “still working as it did in TBC”. It’s not broken.
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