I just realized that too. They are completely off topic.
1 Like
hes been told several times hes in the wrong thread. just flagging everything he says
2 Likes
I hate being that guy, but I am going to have to do the same. That entire exchange was off topic and just derailed this entire thread.
1 Like
The batching changes didn’t break dual twisting. That never would have happened if they had left batching alone.
They tried to undo the batching change to paladins, but they did it in a rushed and inaccurate manner. Fixing some of those inaccuracies is what “broke” 2 way twisting, which never should have been added to the ptr in the first place had Blizzard done an internal pass on how twisting worked on a reference client.
The hunter macro is a different beast caused by Blizzard using the modern API, which doesn’t allow that level of rotation automation. It hasn’t been a big deal for how classes play baseline until now, but an exception to it should be made in tbc to re-allow this for hunters, as it was a very commonly used method of handling the rotation at the time.
It was one of the first things labeled as a “creative use of game mechanics” which wasn’t exactly at exploit level, but definitely not intended, just within limits that Blizzard didn’t feel the need to step in.
In TBC it was not intended but it was allowed to persist. In TBC classic it is intended due to it being unintended but allowed during that era, and they felt it should be recreated.
That’s different than saying that it is intended to be expanded, or redesigned to be “smoother” or “better,” as it is still an attempt at the recreation of a batching bug.
Yes, but the full sentence of the feedback they asked for was for accuracy, not preferred form.
You can still offer that feedback, but it wasn’t the feedback they were explicitly looking for during the ptr.
I’ve listed many, and even gave an estimated math breakdown in the thread referenced. A 12% gain over a 1 way twisting setup, which is already a 3-5% boost over a non-twisting rotation on an undead/demon target with the Mana to spam consecration is far from negligible.
A 12% boost in dps over an already boosted rotation from twisting is fairly huge when the design of hybrid classes in TBC was generally to be around 70% of the dps of classes with the difference made up from raid benefits.
That cuts the intended gap nearly in half, and absolutely pushes ret to the top of the hybrids, and even near the top of the melee, given that people would need a pair of legendary weapons to easily exceed it.
I get that people in here don’t care about where classes fall on the dps meter if they aren’t literally at the top, but it still matters.
An extra few hundred dps can be the difference between a kill and a wipe. A few hundred dps difference can make it harder for some classes to get into a raid outside of perfectly optimized speedrunning comps. Why bring a second rogue when a second ret can match them in DPS and comes with a 2% damage group aura and a luxury blessing?
And, as I have stated. You literally can not implement 2 way twisting in a way that isn’t a nerf to paladins elsewhere in order to keep the dps the same. If it went in, it’s either a buff, or it’s a nerf to anyone not using it, or using it sparingly.
I’d love for a blue post to clarify their stance on it. It’s really the only thing that will stop the circular arguments.
That’s a pretty severe underestimate.
On a 3.6 speed weapon hasted to 3.0 speed weapon Twisting takes your average weapon damage per swing from 135% + 55% from CS (1/2 of CS cooldown) = 190%
To 135 + 55% + (.408 * 105%) = 232.84 %
1 way twisting gets half the twisting benefit due to only being used every other swing.
So 135 + 55% + (.5 * .408 * 105%) = 211.42%
232.84 / 211.42 = 1.101
Or a 10.1% boost, where in reality, it’s a bit higher than that due to crusader strike and auto attacks taking a larger hit from armor than the seals do from partial resists, making the value of the twist relatively higher.
If we are talking vanilla ret, sure. TBC ret is in a much, MUCH better place relatively when played right. You aren’t giving a buff to someone miles behind, you are giving a buff to a class that is only a small step behind.
1 Like
from a person with more posts than me… what in the actual brain damage?..
The reality is you don’t have the capability of logically defending your position because your position is indefensible.
This thread is about seal twisting, and all of my replies where regarding seal twisting…
wrong. you didnt even read OP
1 Like
Nope, sorry, there are other thread that are discussing if seal twisting should be in the game. Your comments should be in that thread. This is a discussion on a specific aspect of twisting and how it works.
2 Likes
what a way for him to admit he has no clue what hes talkin about
1 Like
I’m just happy rets get SoC->SoB twist. Absolutely nuts for pvp. Just be happy blizz kept this unintended mechanic, it’s time for this thread to die. You’re asking for something that wasn’t even in original tbc.
1 Like
It didn’t break dual twisting, if batching was still in paladins would have 1 way twisting, which is what they are cryin about now. They briefly had two way twisting because blizzard didn’t think it all they way though when they attempted to re-implement batching on only the seals so that paladins could twist like they did in TBC.
As for the hunter macro, i may be mistaken but isn’t that because of the new macro system and has nothing to do with batching? The original macro system was very open and could to made to do a lot of stuff blizzard decided to remove later. We got the later version of the addon\macro system.
1 Like
Maybe, I heard the macro problem is not the macro system but how batching is handling the castsequence. The new batching or whatever is in place right now is causing the Steady shots to clip the auto-shots.
The old batching had enough leeway or fudge factor that the Shots were not clipping as it buffered enough to allow both to go off. Now it is not.
At Least that is my understanding of the problem. But I have been wrong before.
I’ve heard that the hunter 1 button macro wouldn’t work LONG before we even heard that batching removal was a possibility.
I don’t have enough knowledge of macro’s to verify that it’s the culprit, but there’s all kinds of macro’s that worked in vanilla that don’t work in classic. Not only were some functions removed, but others were added. Showtooltip for example was NOT a thing in vanilla, you had to manually find the right icon if you cared about the icon (and they don’t all exist), and the tooltip itself was simply not a option at all for macro’s. It’s far more likely the hunter macro was broken by this than batching.
Personally I wouldn’t mind if blizzard addressed that macro, but I don’t think it’d be simple to do so. Changes to the entire macro system would be a lot of work, changes to auto shot to function where it doesn’t get clipped may increase hunter dps (which is already at the top, so that’s not great) If it did increase hunter dps they’d probably need to rebalance them somehow, which is something they’ve already said they don’t want to get into.
1 Like
The hunter one-button used is nothing more that a very simple ‘castsequence’ macro. There is no secret voodoo or mystery behind it.
Tell castsequence to cast Steadshot and autoshot, using your weapon speed as the delay.
That is it. The whole thing is really one line.
It worked before because the batching was on a 400m/s cycle and the two shots could go off within the cycle. In TBC they change the batching to something like 10m/s and now the stead shot clips the auto-shot.
Again, that is my understanding of the macro, but as I was not the person to come up with it, maybe I am missing something, but if you look at the macro, it really is very simple and there is not a lot the macro system could do to impact it, it is all about the batching and when actions get processed in-game.
But I fear we are straying off-topic, better to stop on this line. I will concede the point to not derail this thread.
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
here’s a version of the macro from 2008, see a cast sequence in there anywhere? The NEW version of the macro uses a cast sequence in it, and from my understanding the issue comes from the fact if you move and cancel a cast it get’s buggered up. maybe the castsequence version worked better with batching, i dunno, but it’s NOT the same macro that was used originally, and it function’s differently because of this.
684 posts
Community Manager
We’ve made the following additional bugfixes and changes to the 1.13.7 PTR.
Classes
- Paladin seals will now persist on the Paladin for a very short time after they’re replaced by a different seal.
Please just give us this <3
4 Likes
You may have missed it.
I concede the point as this is not the right thread to discuss hunter macros. I do not want to derail this thread further.
Thanks for the discussion though.
4 Likes
You’re leaving out that you don’t always have room for a filler consecrate, and that the extra mana required to maintain twisting reduces your effective duration of sustained high throughput DPS, which is what I experienced in my multiple hours of testing. Standard one-way twist with the premade gear I get just over 75 seconds of mana, without using consecration or exorcism. That time spent auto attacking after will be a drought when you have no mana to twist.
For quick burst single target fights we will be impressive. For anything over 3-4 minutes (pots, mana tide, dark runes) we have no sustain. This averages out to far less than 10%, more towards the 5% I spoke about. Try it out on the beta and see for yourself. Not only that, but you’re talking about haste gear in p6 which won’t reflect most of the actual effort put in for the first year and a half until people achieve that kind of buildout. Which- also coincides with massive power level increases across the board for most classes. (melee)
3 Likes
The problem with calculating damage increase of 1-way twisting vs non-twisting is related to haste and its availability in phase 1. With a 3.6 speed weapon, it requires 20% haste or 315.4 haste rating to achieve a 3.0 AS. There are only a few sources of haste in phase 1:
- Haste Potion - 400 haste rating
- Thundering Skyfire Meta - 240 haste rating
- Drums - 80 haste rating
- Mongoose - 2% raw haste - 31.54 haste rating
- Abacus of Violent Odds - 260 haste rating
- DST - 325 haste rating
If you have drums in your group, you can’t partake in any of the haste sources besides mongoose safely. You will be stuck at 3.36 AS or above. If you don’t have drums, you can use Thundering or Abacus but not both at the same time. This allows you to drop down to 3.09 AS periodically but only briefly.
If you are north of 3.0 AS you will have a .5-1 second delay on every CS cycle cause you have to lock the previous GCD to your swing timer. This is a 7-15% loss on CS damage. On the other hand, if you dip below the 3.0 AS boundary, you will be missing twist windows significantly reducing the benefit of twisting. Not to mention fights require movement which doesn’t always lend itself to hitting a button in that magical .5 second window.
This is why I was saying that haste stacking can out perform 1-way twisting in its current form on average. Sure, if you win at the casino you’ll do better but you could also well underperform. With just what’s available in phase 1, you can pretty easily operate at about 25-30% average haste dropping well below the 3.0 boundary for extended periods of time.
Overall, with the right gearing choices 1-way doesn’t even provide the highest dps ceiling for ret in phase 1. As the phases progress, the availability of haste increases to the point that the paladin should be operating at 35-40% constant haste. The difference grows even larger the more haste you have due to how haste interacts with ppm items and enchants. The more haste you have the more often your on hit haste procs are up along with the proc from lionheart and mongoose.
This is one of the reasons I’ve been on the side of 2-way twisting. 1-way twisting is a trap. It’s easy to mess up so you gain no damage. It’s easy to wind up oom and do no damage. It encourages tunnel vision looking at your swing timer so you die in the fire and do no damage. You also can’t use abilities like consecrate, exorcism, or engineering items without a dps loss. Many of these items are less unforgiving with 2-way twisting. Although none of these are problems when haste stacking.
3 Likes
As someone with no particular stake in 1-way vs 2-way twisting, how is lowering the skill floor with a less difficult rotation for more damage a good thing?
For hunters the trade-off to having their 1 button macro is that it does less damage and is less flexible than manually making sure you don’t clip your shots, what’s the trade-off for 2-way twisting that justifies doing more damage along with a larger tolerance for making mistakes? Genuinely asking since I don’t know and am pretty sure there’s something I’m missing.
5 Likes
The point I’m trying to make is that everyone is comparing 1-way twisting to non-twisting in a vacuum which makes it look like 1-way twisting is a dps increase over the “normal” paladin rotation. This is then being used as an argument against 2-way twisting because it would be twice as much increase.
Through the use of gear, gems, and consumables haste stacking and using the “normal” paladin rotation is actually higher dps than 1-way twisting. Not only is it higher damage, it doesn’t have any of the pitfalls 1-way twisting has. You basically can’t go oom unless you want to spam consecration for even more dps. It requires a total of 2 button presses, 1 every 6 seconds, and 1 every 8 seconds. If you are in range of the boss, you do maximum dps with very little effort.
People are saying “They are already giving you 1-way twisting, that should be enough. Asking for 2-way twisting is just being greedy and it will increase your dps too much”. The problem is that 1-way twisting doesn’t give us anything at all. It promotes a clunky playstyle that is less dps than just gearing, gemming, and consuming properly. Once ZA comes out in phase 5, haste stacking might even out perform 2-way twisting as well.
3 Likes