This is a very good argument in favor of giving us 2-way twisting. There was no tremendous outcry that I am aware of when hunters got buffed, and it was a change to classic that didn’t exist in vanilla.
It was a balance change in a game where people clamored for #nochanges at the beginning, then stopped caring when they realized that the changes that benefitted others didn’t matter as much as they thought they would. They still ran Naxx, and didn’t quit out of protest due to the change.
As has been previously stated - twisting was never intended in original TBC. Blizzard commented and said they wanted to keep the quirk in even though it was never intended. This creates a new meta which Blizzard embraced by saying they want to keep it in. Responsible follow-through would suggest to make it less clunky, and I’d go so far as to say it wouldn’t be that difficult, numerous suggestions have been made that could achieve a non-clunky result; as ret players we shouldn’t rally against that because we don’t want to learn something new in order to be competitive. You already have to because twisting will be mainstream.
12% dps boost of 0 dps is still 0 dps. ret is not a top tier dps class. theyre brought for their utility and buffs/debuffs and that wouldnt change.
if ret performed as well as fury warr does now, yeah, 12% would be huge. but even still i dont even buy the 12% buff in the first place. youre relying on seal of command to proc either way. 2way twisting just makes the rotation more fluid.
ah yes, blizzard wanted to keep a bug in TBC so now they have to make it even BETTER! I suggest that since they wanted to keep spell batching they were now responsible to make it even more then it was. That’s a TERRIBLE argument.
It was clunky because it was a strange bug that some clever players figured out how to exploit, but now you want more. Imo they should just remove twisting, and seal of blood while they are at it. That’s how ret’s played TBC back in the day (almost noone knew of twisting).
Sure if we’re talking about the original intention of tbc they would remove twisting entirely and seal of blood from the alliance. I’m ok with that as it won’t require a clunky rotation in order to be competitive.
As far as spell batching I’m not sure what you’re saying, as they removed it. The facts of the situation are against you. Blizzard said they wanted to keep the unintended mechanic of twisting. Then they said they want all seals to persist for a short period of time after swapping. They have not officially stated a list of seals that they want to be a part of twisting vs not. They also asked for feedback. What part of that equation are you confused about?
People are asking for all seals to work, or a comment that officially states that they don’t want sob > soc.
Asking for feedback is starting a conversation. Yes, the conversation was started, the people have given feedback, the ball has been passed back to the person who started the conversation. We are awaiting the results, or further questions. That’s how it works.
Easier solution, remove seal twisting entirely… It was never anything but an exploit to begin with.
Also… there’s pretty massive implications for 2 way twisting you’re conveniently ignoring…
Ret instantly becomes the top melee dps in the game… which isn’t really in line with the whole “hybrid tax” that’s supposed to exist.
Ret will be globaling people in pvp, without the usage of wings. While this is technically still possible, without Twisting, it is VASTLY harder to do and more rare a feat than it is with twisting.
well, not really. 1- still back seat to glaives on anything, and also the lowest overall raid damage. only their single target goes up, which again, is still outclassed t6/SW. for 2- can still global people with one way.
blizz is gonna keep twisting, and you can still oneshot dudes even one way once a week. the two way thing doesn’t give any new dominance anywhere, might as well have it in imo
It’s only outclassed in sunwell because Sunwell Gear is horrible for twisting, and haste loaded, and the only weapon is fast speed and haste loaded, forcing your swing timer under 3seconds, and costing you a ton of dps when it breaks the twist rotation.
Outside of that, yeah a war glaive user should also surpass you… but they’re also using legendary weapons and going to be a non hybrid class (warrior/rogue) without real raid utility.
The quality of life improvement is that two-way twisting puts us in a position to be eyeing very different gear sets that can include items that are much less in-demand, thereby increasing the amount of useful loot to a raid.
The dps increase from 1 way twisting to 2 way twisting exists, but is nowhere near as impactful as simply adding seal of blood to alliance. Lets not blow this out of proportion.
The rotation change is simply a change. Players will always find a different rotation. It doesn’t fundamentally alter the function of the paladin in the raid, nor does it fundamentally change the meta for TBC class balance. Each raid will still only have 1 ret pally.
People pushing back hard on two-way twisting are doing it just to be curmudgeons. These are the same folks that didn’t want changes in classic, and here we are paying for chronoboon displacers because the buff meta is so ridiculously dumb.
If seals are meant to be able to be twisted, lets just let it happen. If they aren’t, just take it away entirely.
If it ends up being the second one, pallies will be a lot less fun for the 1/25th of the playerbase that gets to play them in a raiding guild.
Regarding your first point – “instant top melee” is definitely not true, but it at least puts rets competitive with enhancement shaman, if Endless and other pserver logs are any indication. Enh are also a hybrid, so that checks out.
Regarding your second point – the Endless ranked pvp brackets are not flooded with Rets magically because of two-way twisting. The Arena meta remains relatively unchanged from original TBC to Endless.
There are a number of things I’m going to disagree with here:
a) Paladins being the top of melee with 2-way twisting
Shamans are above ret, and will still likely be with 2-way twisting, warriors and rogues will still overtake them in later phases - and you’re severely overestimating what 2-way twisting is capable of especially in longer fights.
b) “Instantly”
I appreciate your confidence, but no, not instantly. As with anything not everyone will choose to twist or do it well.
c) Warriors not being a hybrid class
Ret may be MORE hybrid, but warrior still fills multiple roles and is a hybrid dps/tank, whereas rogues do not. I also wouldn’t use the hybrid tax argument here because… shamans.
I appreciate that you added fresh perspective to the conversation and additional color to your argument but I still respectfully think your argument is incomplete and your opinions are misleading.
I view twisting as something in between. Not something we were meant to be doing, but something that could be used back then that they are trying to preserve so that those that did, or wish to make use of it still can.
I view it a bit like the heroic strike queue bug. It is a pain to make use of, it offers a dps gain. Making it stronger than it was because players don’t like toggling it wouldn’t have been the right move, removing it may have been, as like twisting, it wasn’t intended at the time, but it does make the class less interesting when it is gone compared to what it is supposed to be able to do in that era.
So the best course of action is to treat it as the in between of accepted but not intended that seal twisting is in, which for me means leaving it as it was in TBC.
As this implementation is only happening due to a spell batching workaround, leaving it as close as possible is best.
If spell batching hadn’t been removed, we would have had one way twisting. Batching removal shouldn’t really be used as a springboard for class changes when it is already tough enough to re-established all the batching quirks that arguably made the game more interactive.
