I thought you were halfway intelligent, just stuck in your ways. But saying blizzard makes the meta is one of the dumbest things I’ve read on the forums period. PLAYERS set the meta
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I do plan to, and it is really all 3, no changes being the lesser concern as I knew going into tbc classic that there would be some.
I (and likely the developers considering their statements and Current changes) have a very hard limit on what I consider to be an acceptable change when it comes to modifying the raw dps values the specs are capable relative to each other, which 2 way twisting does, and changes that modify what is the proper maximized rotation of the class relative to tbc.
When those things start getting changed directly, you aren’t talking a remake of the game any longer, you are talking about a full reimagining of tbc. If you want to take “some changes” to mean “change anything to make our class stronger” I’d argue we shouldn’t be having seal twisting expanded, but instead be getting stronger Mana management tools and AP -> SP conversions so that our spells stay competitive with an extra 1.5 seal procs.
That kind of a redesign of TBC paladin is really no less extreme than what the pro 2 way twisters are asking for. It sounds like it is a minor change to just let seals twist all ways, but in practice it is far larger than that.
I’m for keeping (and plan to use) 1 way twisting, which people in here keep saying is too “clunky.” 2 way twisting is the easier of the two twisting forms, as you can mess up half of your twists and still match a perfect 1 way twister in DPS.
You shouldn’t ever take the first form of something on a PTR as the final form of a mechanic. The PTR literally exists to bring things into line. I agree the patch note is badly worded for what blizzard decided to go with, using “seals” as a plural and not as “all.” A badly worded patch note isn’t something that you can use to say “well, Blizzard has to change this now!” We also had fun with the “Consecration will no longer display a debuff on the target” patch note that just meant they made it invisible.
Yes, because that’s all the two way twisters are generally doing as well.
“It gives us a more active rotation!”
- so does 1 way twisting, 2 way twisters just don’t like it. No other class is getting a revised rotation to fit with personal preference.
“People who don’t like 2 way twisting just want to autoattack”
- One way twisting will still be worth doing, and still far more active than that.
“Paladins can use the dps boost!”
- no other class has dps boosts on the table. Two way twisting also has serious implications on Ret’s pvp burst capabilities.
“It’s not that large of a boost!”
- it doesn’t matter, it will change the relative class balance of tbc as it allows rets to jump over several hybrids in power. It is large enough that even significant errors in twisting (almost half) still results in larger gains than even 1 way twisting.
“If you nerfed things to make 2 way twisting not a huge gain, then it would be better!”
-This also has negative impacts on those that were either not twisting, or using twisting sparingly, such as in a pvp setting.
“Blizzard gave alliance seal of blood, so this should be on the table too.”
- they shouldn’t have, but apparently wanted to fix a notable faction imbalance to keep the horde from having the significantly stronger paladins this time. Using blood elf rets as a baseline, this didn’t make the class as a whole any stronger.
“The patch note implies all and the PTR was originally all, I want all.”
- yes, it changed on the ptr, the note was not changed to be more descriptive.
I don’t have any more control over what form of twisting goes in than anyone else in the thread, but all of that is why 2 way twisting between blood and command is almost certainly not going to be reintroduced into tbc classic, regardless of its popularity.
Implementing 2 way twisting would be the most impactful change to class balance that blizzard would have made in the game, and even dwarfs giving seal of blood to alliance in impact.
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Imagine if smeet actually worked at work as hard as he does ruining our party. Also the most impactful thing was adding seal of blood to alliance lol
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You are getting exactly what they said they were. They said twisting was a quirk and is being coded in the game so it works as it did in the original TBC. No where did they say you would get MORE than what it was in the original TBC. This is a extra want over and above of what they said they would do.
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Unfortunately I’ve had to take people at their word. Would love to see some solid proof
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Asking for a 12% dps buff?
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All surviving guides of seal twisting back then show that it needed to start in command, and is confirmed from people that played back then.
Here’s one of the better videos that survived from back then demonstrating it and explaining it.
People definitely did not simply forget to test the other direction back then. It would be the first thing that would have been tested once it was discovered in the first place.
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As a hunter coming to a paladin topic I will just say if paladins could seal twist in tbc they should be able to seal twist in tbc classic. with that said lets also add for blizzard to fix the hunter shots/macros to actually work properly for tbc
Yeah, hunters should get their lazy mode macro back. Like it or not, it was central to how a lot of hunters managed shot weaving back then.
Indeed! I mean technically lazy mode would be shadow bolt/ frostbolt spam. But hunter shot macro was just smart and allowed hunters to not have to micro manage 1.0-1.5 second steady shots calculations to then cast other abilities.
But in spirit of keeping the essence of Burning crusade. Developers please keep seal twisting and hunter shots/macros viable.
Sensationalist propaganda. It’s really not. No meta change, no additional ret being brought, no other classes losing their spots. Not true.
No it gives us a complete rotation. No other class has an incomplete rotation. As soon as twisting was known to be possible, it became required. Now the required rotation is clunky and incomplete. You’re talking to talk not arguing the actual point.
No it won’t, the meta would not change. Not sure why you’ve said this without providing HOW the meta would change with evidence and examples. This is another case of wild claims and absolute sensationalism. Let me try to phrase your argument back to you with a different premise; McDonalds decides to add the McRib to their menu permanently, now nobody will order a Big Mac, my kids won’t order Nuggets. They reintroduced szechuan sauce, the NY Times reports sweet and sour will never be chosen again.
You use subjective words like “notable faction imbalance” and “significantly stronger” to justify why it’s OK to give alliance seal of blood, but that same subjectivity to say why 2-way twisting is NOT ok. Are you seeing the full picture yet?
Whenever you’re about to post try and follow these simple rules:
a) Am I contradicting myself?
b) Is DyeHead going to just point out the same inconsistency in my argument that he did the last 4 times?
c) Am I being contrary on purpose and not being constructive?
d) Can my claim of fact be quicky refuted as conjecture, subjective opinion or sensationalism?
If any of the above, try to bite your tongue (fingers) and save everyone the time of having to point it out. Just because you post in quantity doesn’t mean that it’s quality - stick to talking about the facts behind what one-way and two-way are and why you think two-way is bad. Not a single #nochanges argument is acceptable when there have already been major changes.
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It changes the meta for those classes that are now shifted down the dps rankings by giving Ret a 12% dps boost.
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How does it change the meta? Do you know what a meta is?
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The meta is that Ret is suboptimal to bring more than one of to a raid. If the dps increase pushes their dps above another class that had a raid spot then that spot is now given to a Rey instead in accordance to the meta. Maybe you’re the one that needs to research what it means?
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What class do you see being replaced by a ret? I guess I have to actually spell it out - what would the meta change be? Please provide details to your claims.
If it helps, there are sites that will show you what additional buffs you lose by changing the meta to add in a second ret. google tbcraidcomp and you’ll find it.
I’ll wait.
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ret paladins still do not beat out any pure dps classes which would be the only ones that would get replaced in a meta comp since the other classes bring group buffs
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It only has anytgibg resembling a rotation when you limit yourself to speeds of 3.0 and slower. Once you accelerate past that you are just either using twists or crusader strike as you are able to.
There’s nothing that makes 2 way twisting more “complete” than 1 way, you just don’t like having to use a setup GCD, which we have to do for judgement anyway.
The meta doesn’t have to change for it to be a bad idea. It does risk kicking a rogue or fury warrior out of your group if you could just bring another ret for equivalent damage, an added blessing, and a 2% group damage buff.
The added damage is also not negligible on tightly tuned fights like M’uru, where that paladin having an extra 200-300 dps they aren’t supposed to have could be a big deal.
Giving alliance seal of blood wasn’t my decision. I understand why they did it, which I explained. I wouldn’t have made that change, but the developers did. 2 way twisting is still a larger impact to rets as a whole than giving seal of blood to the alliance is.
Of those 2 things, one of those forms of ret existed back then.
I’ve given lots of reasons why making a change here has implications to the game. You just ignore them all because they aren’t a big deal to you, and try to invalidate my points based on perceived inconsistencies.
There are objective tuning changes to the game through any implementation of 2 way twisting (you can’t implement it without the dps buff without retuning paladin abilities baseline). The developers have stated they have no plans to retune classes, therefore, 2 way twisting is almost certainly not happening.
Even with “some changes” and even with seal of blood going to the alliance.
It’s not my inconsistencies you are frustrated with, it’s the developers’
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The meta is currently 1 rogue, 1 arms warrior, 1 ret. Not changing. Try again?
The developers asked for feedback on this topic. It has not been closed by them in any official capacity, therefore our frustration is with those who seek to cease our feedback on the topic before its been closed officially. How is that difficult to understand?
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why is the 12% damage increase such a huge issue btw they made a change that caused hunters to gain a comparable amount of damage increase when they made world buffs give ranged attack power, did not cause the 30 warrior comps to change…
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Great find! Thanks for sharing that.
This pretty much solidifies it for me. As much as I would love bidirectional twisting, it looks like this is the way it worked in BC, and that’s how it should be if they want to preserve the “authentic experience.”
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