Right, so are you posting in threads asking for these to be brought back? I’m asking because I’m not searching your history for it, I’m trying to determine if you’re consistent or not, it makes a big difference as to whether your opinion matters at all.
While i won’t be playing a hunter this go around, yes i posted in the “keep the one button macro broken” topic in support of it working. The rogue vanish i wasn’t aware it wasn’t working as it did in TBC, but i would support it working as it did in TBC.
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People are able to have an opinion on things without actively spending energy on the opinions.
I agree that the other batching changes should be corrected to mimic original behavior. I’ve made posts saying as much.
It doesn’t negate a person’s opinion just because they have priorities over what things they spend forum time on.
Not making a post in the hunter thread saying “yes, that should be made to work” doesn’t make showing disagreement over changing twisting mechanics less valid.
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I disagree, because the core of their argument is #nochanges without being substantive to the actual request. It’s not constructive or additive to the conversation, so is an unnecessary voice that clutters the thread.
People who say #nochanges and include details about why bi-directional twisting is bad for the game is constructive and adds to the conversation, and I actively encourage that. The reality is there hasn’t been much from that side as to why it’s bad. I hope we can get some more of that type of conversation going.
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People are obviously going to have a larger investment in the potential changes that impact them individually. Ignoring the argument by just saying “well, you arent pure enough to listen to” isn’t helping your case.
There has been things about why it is bad.
TBC classic is meant to be a remake of TBC, with some changes made by the devs to do things like fix glaring issues with the game (such as dropping enchanting but keeping the ring enchants). They have stayed that the hard line on “some changes” are things that change the power level of classes relative to their 2.4.3 state.
This is why drums, even post changes, are still something that can be chained for 100% uptime, to make sure that Sunwell tuning remains accurate to what classes were doing at the time.
Giving ret paladins a sizeable across the board buff would break from that. The retuning of the class that would be required to make 2 way twisting the same dps gains as 1 way currently is would also leave the baseline rets nerfed.
Many people, including myself, are looking to play the tbc classes as they were designed in that expansion. This means that the gearing priorities, rotation, and tricks the class can do are as close to accurate as possible.
Not only does 2 way twisting mess with the optimal rotation and further devalue attacks that aren’t crusader strike, it also creates haste breakpoints that weren’t a big deal in the original TBC as seal twisting wasn’t strong enough to forgo our best stat, and the way it worked allowed for us to go faster than 3.0 speed without nearly as much of a negative impact.
Paladins got a fix in order to keep these behaviors reasonably close to how they were prior to the spell batching changes. Other classes are struggling to get their batching mechanics made correct, and posts like these are being made arguing for ours to just be made twice as strong or twice as applicable.
This is more like rogues saying they want a 1s immunity on vanish because if blizzard put in a .5s one that it just didn’t feel right.
Or hunters saying they want steady shot to not push back auto shots because some changes is fine, and it’s really just making the class play more smoothly.
Some changes are fine, but they should at least align with how the classes were intended to be played back then. 2 way twisting doesn’t. Even 1 way twisting wasn’t intended, but like the heroic strike queue bug warriors benefitted from, it has been recreated (in a workaround fashion) to still work for us.
Expanding it because the initial implementation on the PTR was flawed and made you like it isn’t really that strong of an argument.
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Blue honestly just don’t listen to smeet. I mean God imagine when he finds out the punch bowl is spiked cringe
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I was offering a reasoning for people wanting to ensure twisting is available (in what ever form) in a response to Minigun implying everyone was just “wanting to blast the meters”. The napkin math about APM was to highlight how twisting (in either form) greatly differs from the standard paladin rotation and to illustrate how twisting is more engaging.
We get it. You are only on board for single direction twisting for reasons that seem to be twofold:
- Bidirectional seal twisting wasn’t in TBC so should not be available in any form on TBC Classic
- Bidirectional seal twisting will have too great of an effect on class balance
I fully accept and acknowledge your point of view on the subject even though it differs from mine. That is the foundation of discourse. Every conversation doesn’t have to have a winner.
Many people in this thread are simply stating that their preference is for bidirectional seal twisting to be available if given the option between the two, though the reasons why people prefer bidirectional are varied. Your preference is for single direction seal twisting which is just as valid. Neither group is wrong in that each group wants what they want.
At the end of the day my personal opinion is that seal twisting in some form should be available in TBC Classic with a preference for bidirectional as it offers the most streamlined gameplay. If it doesn’t happen and we get unidirectional twisting it’s not the end of the world of warcraft.
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Fully respect and agree with all of that.
It’s fine that people want 2 way twisting. I just don’t think that it should be part of the game, and like to provide a counterargument to the key points of the pro-2-way crowd so that the concerns are well reasoned and stated.
At the end of the day it’s up to Blizzard to decide what the final version of things will be, but it is currently looking like 1 way twisting is what they are happy with, as they pushed the current rule set into the live classic realms on Tuesday (obviously without blood yet).
I want paladins to be able to seal twist as well. I just don’t want the impacts of it expanded beyond what they originally were, a few utility twists and a mild gain for dps with a higher skill check.
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Why not take that mild dps and make it Luke warm though. Like, just join us bro it’s good for your health 
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Mostly because I find twisting in general to be clunky as hell.
I had accepted that tbc would bring with it twisting on half of my swings. Making it all would make me rather reroll hunter again for full time shot weaving.
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Thanks for the detailed response and I’ll try to respond in more detail later; though the low hanging fruit is the comment about gearing.
If twisting was never a part of the original design of the class, then talk of gearing, haste breakpoints, primary stats isn’t relevant, as gear was not designed around it - and therefore bear no weight on any additional changes to an already ‘unintended’ mechanic.
I do appreciate the effort on your post and will respond more later!
That’s true, but even after discovery, the way it worked, the allowance for more haste, and the more limited gains made it not really impact TBC gearing strategies.
2 way twisting has a uniquely large haste breakpoint at a 3.0 speed weapon due to losing free GCDs that 1 way twisting never had.
Some people seem to want to say no to bidirectional twisting because it wasn’t in original tbc.
My answer to that is we aren’t getting original tbc, we are getting tbc classic just like how we didn’t really get original vanilla… we got a mutation.
I’m for the #SomeChanges movement. Blizzard sounds like they want to implement certain things (like achievements potentially). If they do that, there is no reason not to allow bidirectional twisting.
Honestly seems easier to me to code to allow all seals to twist rather than only from SoR or from SoC.
Give us bidirectional twisting, Blizzard. I don’t care if it adds more damage or not, it just feels like a better rotation than unidirectional twisting.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
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Bidirectional twisting or you’re a commie
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Really awesome to see so much support for the two way twist!
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This is your first comment I have liked Smeet. While you don’t agree with a lot of us, you at least show some willingness to be open here. I also, appreciate that it would make the class require more activity to max out it’s potential. While I personally like that option to be available to people, I understand how it can be concerning.
I honestly probably won’t max out, my two way twisting full time if they put it in either, but I want my fellow paladins to have that option.
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Didn’t original tbc have batching which made it possible to twist any seal??
It wasn’t any seal.
It had a lot to do on the exact timings the seals triggered, and what they were allowed to trigger off of.
Seal of command, for example, could only be applied after swing start with crusader on and get both seal effects, if you tried it with any other seal, you would only get 1.
Seal of blood could proc if applied after the game checked to see if command procced, but it didn’t work the other way.
Light and wisdom couldn’t twist at all with each other.
It was really wonky (each seal is somewhat uniquely programmed), and generally only worked in one direction.
Any implementation in beta to recreate it was likely to be equally wonky.
I find the ability to disagree respectfully to be an important skill. There’s a lot of stuff people don’t agree on, and I don’t expect to change many (if any) minds, but I do enjoy a good debate.
You guys have any idea how hard it is to double twist or one way in general? HARD. SURE we’re super sweaty and we can do it, but even we focus up HARD. Imagine the next 3 standard deviations down from us. It’s not a simple trick, it’s a dps loss if you mess up, and this is an absolutely brilliant thing to have in the game to transform tbc ret from absolute bots to a spec that people would be proud of
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Yeah, it does give the spec more to do than hit 3 buttons as they come off cooldown. 2 way twisting is inherently easier to pull off though, as it doesn’t require setup, and as is, ends up a dps boost even if you are messing up almost half of them.
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