Outlaw needs help please blizzard lets fix more things for 11.0.5! (EU cross post)

Classes Rogue
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Hey guys this is a post from Vurai on the EU forums. If you want to see the original post here is a link: https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/outlaw-need-help-please-blizzard-lets-fix-more-things-for-1105/542556

Feedback and hopes for some further improvements for Outlaw in 11.05:

Deft Maneuvers:
Deft Maneuvers does not work, the Blade Flurry initial hit damage is not increased, even though the tooltip states its supposed to increase by 100%, atrocious lies!

The initial damage is the same whenever you talent into Deft Maneuvers or not, please update the tooltip and remove the ‘Blade flurry’s initial damage is increased by 100%’ if this is not true and intended.

Lucky Coin:
Lucky Coin capstone for Fatebound does not work consistently, hitting 7+ coins back to back and half the time it does not activate Lucky Coin, time to fix this once and for all in 11.05.

It is happening for sure in this situation:
Lucky coin will consistently fail to proc if you double jeopardy from 6 to 8 coins.

Additionally please increase the downtime timer to 30seconds, 15seconds is too short considering the distance we have to run between packs in many dungeons, and if the tanks are RP walking, otherwise you’ll force rogues to play slightly toxic and we will have to pull for the tanks using tricks + evasion to maintain it! Already having it drop off is extremely painful as a result of the bug where Lucky Coin doesn’t proc consistently too, so please help us out here.

Killing Spree:
Killing Spree needs to actually be on your Radar, no iterations for 11.05 suggest that this ability has been ignored and its in desperate need to be modernised and remove all the huge inaccessibility issues affecting this ability, such as nausea inducing camera movement, suicidal teleportation mechanics, etc.

Almost zero people are playing the Trickster Zero Tree for Outlaw in Raids and M+ due to Killing Spree being very unsuitable for pretty much most of the bosses. Time to dissolve the toxic gameplay and revitalise it with something cool! Simple improvements such as making Killing Spree a full ranged ability (Bullet Hail inspirations, or Bullet Dance (Haze’s ultimate from Deadlock), back to back pistol attacks rather than teleporting melee attacks would significantly improve this ability and can’t imagine something as simple as this would be hard to implement. If you go down the Bullet Dance route, it could just be like bladestorm, but with pistols.

Example of Bullet Dance for Killing Spree fix:
(See the EU post for this video I am not popular enough to post youtube links).

It doesn’t have to have a range this big in the video, something like 12 yards around you is perfectly fine. If you go for a single target route of back to back pistol shot spam on the target, then continue to interact with Blade Flurry, maybe consider adding some interesting damage bonus like (while Blade Flurry is active, hit all targets around you and ignore the silly hard cap of 7 additional targets
 or maybe give Blade Flurry a soft cap again (damage reduced beyond 8 targets thingy)).

Additionally, possibly consider adding Killing Spree to UHUH (to freeze the duration of AR during Killing Spree). This will make it feel better to play while we are locked out of performing actions for a couple seconds?

Adrenaline Rush:
2nd Charge of Adrenaline Rush would be much appreciated with our current Outlaw gameplay, being able to continue to contribute to the CDR while AR is ready, when we already have AR up still due to good moments would be nice for extra flexibility and power for our CDR gameplay, and it’ll also further mitigate against our weakness of being hugely reliant on constant uptime. It’ll make Acro slightly less missed too, I’m sure you’d like this.

Supercharger Outlaw: Supercharger still needs a look at for Outlaw, RTB is not a good design choice for this talent, please consider attaching it to Adrenaline Rush or Vanish please: When playing Keep It Rolling (KIR), we refrain from using RTB for extended periods of time because we often lock in our buffs using KIR, and then we want to avoid overriding those extended buffs boosted by KIR, therefore Supercharger being on RTB is quite restrictive for Outlaw in these circumstances. Being on Adrenaline Rush or Vanish would make Supercharger more interesting for our current gameplay of doing extra damage during Subterfuge (higher CP crackshot/BTE means higher ace proc chance, more resets more fun!).

  • It’s still a shame Echoing Reprimand is being removed, it was a fun ability with a bit of a mini game feel, which made the spec a bit more interesting and required some cognitive ability to execute so it felt fun to play with.

Fazed for Outlaw Trickster:
Its impossible to AOE-apply Fazed as Outlaw, but Sub rogue can, is this intentional??? Again probably another reason to update Killing Spree into a nice ability that can actually do AOE damage.

Greenskin Wickers:
Greenskin Wickers talent (GSW) needs a bit of love too, its basically useless atm. Or just remove it and give us a nice new talent thats competitive and interesting too. Its been dead for a long long time.

11.05 has some positives!
Regardless of the feedback above, I’m still looking forward to 11.05, some good changes especially the BTE reset change (lets be honest this was needed 4 tiers ago when Crackshot was first implemented to help address the endless and seemingly unfixable bugs we’ve had to suffer for nearly a year).

Thank you Devs for the good work :slight_smile:, looking forward to hearing back :wink:

Down here I am posting some of my own personal thoughts about these topics:

Lucky Coin
This is potentially the most frustrating hero tree capstones in the game. It is fully possible (even in sims) to go an entire boss fight not seeing a proc. That means for a full raid fight you will have gotten zero value out of our hero tree capstone. There is no way to game this or force it. In m+ this happens far more frequently as mentioned, its easy for the buff to drop off then never proc again for several minutes.

This capstone has no animation, no gameplay, doesn’t work if you ever skip past the 7th coin and might not even proc on a normal pull of proper gameplay. Please heavily consider looking at this for a redesign.

Supercharger Outlaw:
Lets talk a bit more about this new central node we have on the tree. Sub and sin both got this passive set as a proc off a spell they already cast at the beginning/middle of their burst damage sequences. This makes supercharged a fully passive node that automatically adds more strength into their burst windows where they want it. Very well designed, good job for them.

For outlaw, the ability choice for this node does not make sense. RtB has its own set of rules based off buff values, while this node would get its MAXIMUM value when pressing RtB as often as possible. This means we have two sets of optimization pulling in opposite directions, rolling for multiple buffs vs spamming rolls to proc more supercharger.

This could potentially work for some brand new, not currently existing outlaw build that wants to spam rolls. However supercharger itself would probably need to be more valuable for this to happen. Whats confusing is we have had a standard, well liked by many in the outlaw community ER build for 2 expansions now. KiR build uses ER to help with its high variance CP generation and provide a level of rng protection to its crackshot windows. KiR is a build that focuses on stacking buffs and extending them, which you cannot do with an ability that wants you to frequently Reroll.

Why does the new “ER” work directly in opposition to the primary build that has been playing it for 2 expansions? Was it designed with the intention of not being taken as KiR anymore and making a third build we’ve never played? This feels like a large miss to me as there is already a choice node on this path that currently does not do anything. You choose between more passive damage after pressing Rtb, or more passive damage after pressing Rtb. Neither option lets it mesh with KiR, and at current design its looking like KiR might even drop this entire node path to pick up lethality or vigor. Please strongly reconsider what spell supercharger is procc’d off of for outlaw.

Greenskin Wickers:

This talent could really use a full redesign. As is, this is effectively a passive damage node competing with other stronger nodes (ghostly strike). It does not add anything to the rotation or have any fun rules, for the part of the tree that is meant to represent the gunplay aspect of outlaw, this is a big letdown. It was exciting as a new legendary back in the day but it has not aged well with new design. Personally I see this as a potential place for adding blue CP back for outlaw, proccing off empowered PS or something of that nature.

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Yes, from a quality of life standpoint the BTE reset when we enter Vanish is a great change, along with Feint coming off of the GCD. A good start but a lot of work still has to be done.

I wish you would revert the ER change but as outlined above, I could not agree more with Supercharger needing a change. Keep it Rolling will never roll off a full set of buffs just to spam roll the bones
 so instead of having ER for rotational downside protection, you’re making us spend costly GCD’s re-rolling off good buffs
 this is going to feel terrible. Please change Supercharger to have it linked to Vanish.

2nd charge of Adrenaline Rush would be incredible, no other feedback needed here.

Soft Cap Blade Flurry
 PLEASE

It’s no secret that Outlaw is one of the only specs left in the game that has its AOE damage completely capped (talented) to only eight targets, making it completely uncompetitive in higher tier mythic keys. Please consider soft capping Blade Flurry so it does diminishing damage to any targets over eight.

Can confirm Deft Maneuvers is not working.
Agree with increased Lucky Coin time so it doesn’t fall off while moving from pull to pull in m+

Not really sure what to do with Trickster until Killing Spree has been reworked. I like the idea posted in the video. If you aren’t going to soft cap Blade Flurry to increase the amount of targets we can hit, maybe make Killing Spree a completely non target capped massive channeled AOE attack. This would allow us to be more competitive on massive dungeon pulls. Nothing worse than seeing an FDK hitting 14m damage while you’re hardcapped at 4m

I would also consider taking Roll the Bones off of the GCD as well allowing more flexibility to reroll during crackshot windows without it feeling like you are wasting a GCD.

Thanks for the write up as always Vurai. Hoping we can get additional clarity from the devs on some of the major issues currently plaguing Outlaw.

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Can we not? Why do we have to make Crackshot even more overbearing?

I actually agree with this.

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I mean synergistically it just makes sense with how we deal damage right now. You are going to hop into your Crackshot window with Vanish, instantly getting two supercharged combo points. When you use those next two finishers it’s going to feel good knowing that they are going to do extra damage.

I know you aren’t a huge philosophical fan of how outlaw plays right now (utilizing stealth windows etc.) but its all we got xD

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I agree what is said within this thread, we really need a good amount of attention, at minimum acknowledgement.

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Honestly, just making supercharge work like Cold Blood: Press and it applies to the next thing or things as appropriate, and keeping it off of the GCD would be way better than tying it to any specific ability while also solving for the Keep It Rolling setups (and some other edge cases where you want to delay things a bit).

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Some notes from someone actually maining Trickster at the moment.

It has needed to be reworked for years. They have stated in the past that it has been placed at the bottom of the priority list. Basically, they know and do not care. The fact they tied it to the Trickster tree is just their way of passively saying “We’d prefer you don’t play this at all.”

Killing spree is very much so playable on any content that isn’t Mythic raiding. I have played it in keys up to 10’s just fine, and I have done my entire AOTC/multiple kills on every boss with it. It’s actually more helpful on half the bosses, as redirecting adds to the tank as they spawn is ridiculously nice.

Killing spree only becomes an issue in 2 scenarios. (not including obvious nausea/accessibility concerns, which are an entire conversation on their own)
A: You’re in Mythic raid. The first boss completely prevents its use with the stun-webs, thus making Trickster functionally unplayable in that fight.
B: You press it at a bad time because you don’t know the spot on a boss it sets you, or get clipped by abilities during its window, fail to cleanse the DoT with Cloak, and get murdered.

In anything below Mythic raid, it is very much so usable.

I have a feeling this is intended, as Blade Flurry is supposed to take damage modifiers from the main target and apply them to the cleave damage. However, this is wildly inconsistent on what things actually apply their bonuses on cleave, and something tells me Fazed is one that doesn’t do it.

So, standard failure on a design point, and needs to be fixed.

Problem is, them adding Crackshot just made GSW unusable. Why take some basic extra damage on pistol shot, when you can take something that spams two abilities on one button press and does stupid damage on crits.

GSW need a rework or needs to be replaced by something like Celerity to even function as an alternative.

I’d recommend something to nerf Crackshot, but they are way too incompetent with balancing this patch to trust that nerfing that talent would lead to buffs elsewhere to compensate.

I have lost all hope with their class design team with this expansion. The laziness and sheer incompetence behind nerfing us and Fury over a single week of un-buffed, zero tier set, only raid data was just ridiculous. Every single person who looked at the numbers in PTR knew exactly how classes were lining up in the last weeks before release. Everyone playing Outlaw knew our Tier set was so useless, that we could actually just replace it with stat weight gear and be fine.

How does the company that claims to have all of this internal data to track stuff actually fail to understand the math behind its own game? It’s hilariously bad.

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I wish rogues have the same number of players as hunters. Hunters were able to get their nerf reverted.

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It is intended that you take Cloud Cover for AOE Fazed, but it will only apply in AOE from the initial Blade Flurry hit, and only up to your maximum number of targets, in my limited tests. All other abilities will only apply it to the primary target.

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The damage gain for Cloud Cover is basically nonexistent.

While it may be the intention, it’s a terrible design that should have been redone after they changed the Feint activation method in PTR.

The GCD is wasted during an opener and would be better used for an extra hit of BTE, considering the potential damage output over the course of consistent, back to back pulls. The damage value of a potential extra BTE crit far exceeds the value of wasting it on a hefty CD and adding an extra button to the kit.

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Replacing GSW with a reworked Bandit’s Guile that resets stacks when stealthed (instead of target swap) may be something.

I really like the idea of Killing Spree becoming a (Diablo 3) Demon Hunter-like Strafe button, except with pistols.

I actually enjoy seeing Pistol Shot and Sinister Strike as major damage components, even though there are obvious balancing issues with Crackshot still, so would like something to actually lean into stable damage generation, instead of stuffed Subterfuge windows (why is current Outlaw the BFA Subtlety conversation all over).

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The problem with tying supercharger to vanish is that it only makes Crackshot even stronger.

But tying it to RTB meanss that superchargers works against the Keep it Rolling talent.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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How so? If I’m following along with what you mean correctly, then you’ll often be rerolling after Keep it Rolling is cast.

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And save shadow step plz

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You want to hold good buffs but super charger requires you hit RTB on CD as much as possible to benefit from the super charged combo points. Super charger would work if RTB was not baseline and it was still a talent as an alternative way to play by tying super charger to vanish/shiv, etc.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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Yeah but KiR locks the buffs in. Otherwise it’ll still the same deal as HO, holding broadside and at least two others ideally.

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Supercharger doesn’t work well with RTB at all honestly. I mean if you ignore all rolls but why do that when your DPS will tank if you ignore good rolls just for two super charged CPs?

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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ER is a 45 seconds CD. You’ll likely be pressing RTB more times in 45 seconds than you would ER. The buffs are 30 seconds, unless used with KiR which locks them in place anyway, so overall it should be a lot better. (If I’m understanding the changes correctly, anyway)

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Then lets use the opportunity to use this for something else. Such as buffing GSW to its former, or potentially better, glory. The problem outlaw has is it has never been a spec with depth and now all these machnics were shoehorned in and now nothing works.

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The problem that people cannot grasp is just “buffing gsw” will not work because of the energy nerfs that happened over DF. Outlaw cannot even function outside of ADR because you’re perma starved just afk auto attacking until you can get rush back. Even if they buffed GSW it simply cannot produce the same amount of cooldown reduction as CS when the spec is literally designed around maintaining a 90%+ uptime on ADR.

There will never be an alternative period until they revert the energy nerfs by putting potency back to 35%, flourish back to 75%, upping opportunity back to 45%.

I dont understand how nobody understands this unless you’re new to the spec since the rework or in absolute coping denial like some. Like people can just go hit a training dummy without ADR and see that it’s actually unplayable healer dps.

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