Again, the complaint was that the “elites” needed to do a bunch of low level stuff to hope for that forge, rather than just being able to do the actual hard content they want to do and be able to get the best gear from it. The side effect was that it also eliminated the lottery win for the “casuals”
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they didn’t and still don’t. some of them were annoyed at feeling like they themselves had to kill certain bosses on every difficulty because of the rare chance that they might get (for example) a TF trinket from LFR that’s better than the mythic version they currently have.
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Are we going to start summing up both side’s argument based on one person? Because very few casual players are saying anything that extreme.
I’ve literally seen people say “LFR shouldn’t reward any gear at all since it’s just for story,” and “WQ rewards should
Never increase,” but I don’t assume that very many people even on the hardcore side agree with that.
Which is fine, isn’t it? I don’t wanna do heroic dungeons or LFR anyway, so I got an alternative gearing path that took time AND a currency grind that, in turn, gimped my progression in the covenant sanctum. It wasn’t “free epics”.
And yet the item level scaling in the open world continues to make that gear feel insignificant. The scaling drop-off is pretty clearly tuned for people with gear at an item level above the maximum available via covenants. So those of us now stuck at 195-200 feel, quite justifiably, a little short-changed and were hoping there’d be an upgrade path for that gear as well.
Without the dreadful ilvl scaling the devs forced into the game - which goes against everything a RPG is about - this wouldn’t be so much of a problem.
Yeah, the loss of that was a real fun-killer for casual players. When you log in and see nothing that could even have the tiniest chance of offering you some progress, you just log off again.
MMOs should be social yes. But that does NOT mean “mandatory group content” and it never has.
That was a them problem. They already had the skill and the connections to do the hardest content with the best rewards reliably dropping, so the whole “feeling forced” argument kinda falls apart right there.
No, they were not asking for anything of the sort.
Nonsense. The gear is just the enabler. The reward is the “prestige” as you’d know from the end-boss mythic mounts being parked around cities by the people that were good enough to complete that content.
Shutting down progression for a majority of the player base so you can feel good about being more powerful than they are, that’s not prestige. That’s actively bad for the game.
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PVP gearing has been so good PVE players have been using it to gear for their content so they can be competitive. Surely PVP players can use it for their own. And let’s not forget that doing both has always been the best way to gear.
If you only PVP this is the best gearing expansion in years, beating PVE easily if you’re good at it.
What’s the request then? A vague "let us upgrade by doing WQs isn’t very helpful in the discussion. Where should this solo avenue top out considering you’re already gonna be about normal raid and mid m+ levels just by doing covenant/WQ/unrated PVP?
Shutting down progression for a majority of the player base so you can feel good about being more powerful than they are, that’s not prestige. That’s actively bad for the game.
It’s been like this since the games inception. It should and will stay the way it is. If you want better rewards, put the effort in.
No other expansion, with the exclusion of the forging nightmare of Legion/BFA, has let players who just do world content get raid equivalent gear/rewards. If they want it, they can put the effort in like everyone else that has received those rewards.
You think the person who took freshman classes over and over got the same education as the one who took the higher level ones? Looks like we need some serious changes in the education system!
This! When I look at someone’s gear I can’t always tell if they got it by running a +15 or they got it by running a +8 and getting it from their vault. Or whatever the exact equivalent is.
When I see the mount I KNOW 100% that person ran everything at 15 plus.
Which brings up a whole other point, because selling runs exists I wonder if you’d all feel people “deserve,” their 226 gear because they were able to farm a billion gold and buy runs? Because that’s an option Blizz allows and so many people are saying Blizz knows best.
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Sure it was a them problem, but that doesn’t change the fact that the push to remove TF was about them and not anyone else.
The fix would have been to cap the titan-forge to the next difficulty: lfr titan-forged gear capped at normal raid ilvl gear, normal raid tf capped at heroic raid ilvl gear. But nope.
This is a big point, dialing down the scaling would go a long way to making people happier with the 197 level I think.
And how long does it take to get that reward? If you know anything about how positive reinforcement works, you’d understand the concept of ratio strain. Without reinforcers (e.g. gear) sprinkled throughout that journey to the “bigger reward” (if that’s even a reward for some individuals) most would deem that reward not worth it (and most already do considering that serious raiding has always been only about 30% of the population).
If the same gear came from raiding as it did from WQs, raiding would die.
Yes they were, but nice job cutting off part of my post to make a point
I and most people who play the game casually do not exist on your ladder and wouldn’t even play on your ladder if you put me in the best gear in the game. We don’t know what “high level gear” means and just want a route of gear progression.
I’m not trying to stop any of you from having your esports competition but it seems you want to stop people who don’t participate in it from even having something as basic in rpgs as your character getting better over time.
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Shoot that’s plenty of work to qualify as earned!
Could be, although some people make gold hand over fist on the AH. There’s also the extreme pay to win option of buying a ton of tokens. Point being that is an alternative way to get geared, if someone can farm enough to buy a few mythic runs or just buy up BOEs on the auction house who decides if they earned it or deserve it?
The game itself seems to say they deserve it, I mean they have it. The argument stating there are routes to higher gear and if oh choose not to do those routes seem to suggest this is a route so they would feel that person deserved it as well.
What ladder is that? I’m in the casual club too.
I’m not into esports, but feel free to make me a bad guy if it makes you feel better.
You don’t know what high level gear is? How? There’s a number right on it that tells you.
Everyone has one that goes all the way up to about normal raid level gear with almost no effort involved. Everyone has the option to go past that by doing the next level of difficulty in content. Aside from that, what would you add for an appropriate path for you? Where would those rewards max out?
I’m sitting at 201 (due to my upgraded legendary) in holy and 198 in prot. I can solo level 8 Torghast wings and at minimum full layer 1 of TC (not sure how much further than that I could go since I haven’t tried). There’s no world content I’ve encountered that I wanted to do solo, that I couldn’t. I don’t feel short-changed. If anything, I’m surprised how at much I can do with a whole lot of 197 covenant gear and gear from weekly quests. I’ve done some keys for fun and challenge. And I feel like if I wanted to do more on this character, I certainly could. There’s absolutely nothing keeping me from engaging in more challenging content that would reward better gear, apart from my own desire or motivation to do so.
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What number is “high level”? Please let me know. What does “high level gear” mean? I couldn’t tell you the max ilvl in this game right now. I could not care less what ilvl you get from the highest raid tier is what I mean.
I’ll avoid casual as a term. It’s overloaded.
The esports to me are pvp (arena), m+ and raiding. The competitive game. The game where people start being super toxic and forget that you can play this game as an big open world rpg.
The people who don’t participate in the game as an esport have no place and no way to improve their character. There is no point in playing this game once you max your campaign in shadowlands unless you hop on the instanced content treadmill.
Even in BFA this wasn’t the case. You could grind WQ’s and get progressively better. You could get benthic gear. You could do visions. You could very slowly get residium. There were countless ways to improve your character without getting into the esports and now those are entirely gone.
This is what I believe most casuals (me included) are really unhappy about.
Edit: darn it I used the word casual at the end there. You get my point though.
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because m+ players and raiders do not like seeing casuals with half decent gear in pvp situations, they want to be able to enter bgs and 1 shot everything, they do not like fair fights.
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