And where are you pulling said definition from?
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Ok, sounds fine… now if blizzard implements who knows
They won’t admit to it but it’s a fear thing.
Raiding is a competitive environment.
If suddenly everyone is geared then it’s about performance.
And this scares some of the ones who aren’t as good as their gear would lead you to believe. (guild carries/ bought runs etc)
More people geared= more competition for “their” spot in a raid.
Also the same for pvp, why else buy carries for higher end pvp that you won’t run normally?
Mounts AND the gear will help you compensate for your lack of skill.
With enough gear a monkey could roll you in a random bg.
it’s why templates were so hated, you couldn’t outgear someone, you had to outplay them, and people hated it.
Same mentality with twinking, massively outgear then roll the nubs. Great fun until Blizz made them play other twinks THEN it was unfair. 
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I’d argue very very few people are that type of player.
Remove rewards entirely from mythic and it would be a dead difficulty run only by those in the elitist of elite mindsets.
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Looks like Blizzard already did!
shakes fist at those fires
Sorta like the fear of being killed by better geared people in PVP? A popular complaint.
We had this in BFA. With “casuals” complaining.
We have a dude who can’t raid anymore due to work commitments who managed to pug his KSM as a Warrior Tank and DPS.
Dudes a beast.
Personally I loathe how effectively bad players have rebranded themselves as casual. Gives the actual good casuals a bad name.
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20 years of playing MMOs and RPGs before they were esports.
What is your definition of a casual then? Someone who plays for 15 mins a day? What about the people who play more time than you but don’t do M+ or raid.
Are they hardcore? Great. Hardcore players should get gear progression right?
It’s not that they don’t want them to have it, it’s that they want it to require a similar effort to earn. So the issue isn’t that casuals don’t deserve better gear, it is that they should have to put forth a similar amount of effort and defeat similarly difficult challenges to earn it.
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Two issues:
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In short, I do what I do to please myself and it doesn’t matter if non-college educated folks are making more money than I do as they’ve earned it.
This is the point though, they earned it by doing the things.
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To the subject at hand, if one is doing what one really enjoys, it shouldn’t matter how others are being rewarded. It is about progression and greater effort should produce greater rewards whether that is learning to dance with raid bosses, CC’ing other players to death or endlessly farming things out in the world. I want everyone to have a progression path to becoming stronger. Some may have a quicker path, I’m fine with that but no one should have a cap simply because they play a different aspect of the game.
There are three core aspects of the end game: Raiding, PvP, Mythic+. They all give scaling rewards on difficulty and have the same cap.
Now people want to add a forth aspect to the end game, of infinitely lower difficulty and no scaling aspects, and demand the same rewards as the most difficult levels of the other 3. This combination is bad design, and would ruin (fundamentally) the game.
No one, except the highest PvP / Mythic+ / Mythic Raiders has a cap. Everyone else has available content that will increase their power. This isn’t about people being stuck and not having choices — in fact: WQs continually upgrade reward with renown levels; there are more upgrades to come in the future.
This is about a small subset of players who 1) aren’t casual, 2) don’t like challenge, and 3) are impatient.
I don’t care what gear anyone else has; I hope you all get all the loot.
But if the only way you can get that gear is to completely invalidate the current season/tier — instead of waiting a bit for the next patch, or … idk, doing the content yourself – I take issue with the proposed ideas.
Even in the past, Badges of Valor only dropped in Raid / Heroic Dungeons. Today, that implementation would mean [+5 - +10] mythic+, and Heroic Raids. WQ’s wouldn’t get you any under the old system either.
When the next tiers were released, and the old ones nerfed to easy pug status, then the “casuals” were able to collect the valor and go get the gear: always AFTER the tier though.
Yea, bad players are just that… bad, hell you can have bad hardcore players, but it’s harder for them to fly under a banner.
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Yep, exactly.
Of course, everyone who couldn’t cut it, complained.
I don’t want the same gear as the best players. All I ever wanted was a real sense of reward and progression throughout the activities of the game.
I like getting better gear, but it never had to be even close to the best gear. But now, with scaling, a little bit better feels like nothing or even less than nothing.
You want the same thing but don’t want to put in the same coordination and effort to get it. It’s a very simple point of view that you don’t seem to understand. Your world quest doesn’t nearly take the same coordination so why would you be rewarded like someone who did a 15? Plz don’t say your WQ is just as hard to do as a 14-15 key.
I ground out the Insane.
There was nothing casual about what I did.
Your personal experience is completely irrelevant. 20 years and you haven’t figured out that there are many different types of casual players and not all of them fit the same bill that you seem to have created in your own mind. I’d ask for a refund if I were you.
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You didn’t answer. What’s a casual then?
I’ve always felt that it was more of a compass that has two scales, one being time put in and the other being intensitydifficulty of content.
And this is the crux of the issue.
Everyone makes up their own definition.
I have also played for 20 years. I also believe there are “casuals” working that M+. And that M+ is one of the greatest things to happen for the “casual” playerbase.
There are 3 forms of gear progression. All can be done on some sort of “casual” level.
If you decide not to participate in nearly all end game content, you deal with the consequences.
It was mostly that “casual” crowd. “I dont have the experience, but I have the ilvl. I can’t believe they wont blindly invite me”.
I raid, and I dont raid for gear.
I acknowledge there are people who dont enjoy raiding and only raid because their enjoyment from the game is getting a good piece of loot.
Personally I feel a little bad for them because that sounds terrible. I myself would not do something I DONT enjoy for that amount of time just for that momentary payoff at the end when the loot drops. Sounds super boring.
My position is most people aren’t actually like that. The people I raid with, with a couple of exceptions, would continue to raid even if no gear came from raiding. We enjoy the progression, getting better on a boss, getting them lower and lower and then starting again on a new boss. That is the content we like. We also get equipment from doing that content.
Apply how I feel about that content to a casual player who prefer doing tons of WQ’s and professions. They enjoy traveling the shadowlands, completing WQ’s, fishing along the way, skinning stuff, and whatever else casual players do in shadowlands.
I have no problem if the reward for their chosen content, which they enjoy just as much as I enjoy raiding, is similar ilevel gear.
And there are so many more of those players than players who do content they dont enjoy for the loot payoff, that it makes sense imo to implement something for them.
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I helped my wife farm lockboxes for ravenholdt rep
I don’t know how people do it, I consider myself rather hardcore in time spent, but damn, that is well… insane.