Everyone’s opinion matters, not just the players who do high end content. Unfortunately high end content is done by a minority of the player base. I am not saying high end content players opinions do not matter. I am simply pointing out that Blizzard is going to concern themselves with the overall majority, not the two ends of the spectrum of low end vs high end.
The thing is any rp benefit can be maintained purely by practicing self control and maybe giving some type of buff in non instanced content based on loyalty. It’s the same argument as anti flyers it’s directly detrimental to other people’s gameplay in a way that can’t be worked around.
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I agree. The anti-flying crowd’s answer is ludicrous. It can not be worked around aside from just removing it altogether. I do not think the covenant comparison is accurate though.
Although it is a bad comparison I think covenants should be considered more as a sub class. No one seems to have an issue that X class is less than ideal for Y content. Not all healers or tanks perform equally in M+ compared to say raids. People have accepted those differences as just part of the game. The fact that covenants are temporary powers does not help but people need to think of these in that same format. If you pick a class that is not ideal for M+ and then pick a lacking M+ covenant on top of it… ya you are likely to be hurting with M+ group invites from pugs. Simple solution? Just play with your friends/guildies. Of course you could pick your covenant based on your classes weakness. This just adds a layer of complexity to this game that we have been lacking for a while.
Do I think using borrowed powers to test this was the best idea? No. Using the older talent tree style would have felt better IMO but I am glad they are trying to give us back some more lasting impact.
WoD failed to deliver on many fronts, except for delivering non endgame content. it delivered a ton of non raid content. it failed so hard they chopped it and released an expac a year early. what is your point exactly.
Citation desperately needed lol.
As I’ve always stated on this topic.
If the difference between covenant abilities/soulbinds/conduits is the same as the difference between racials… No one will care. Like at all.
If the difference between covenant abilities/soulbinds/conduits is the same as the difference between essences… I look forward to 9.1/9.2 to finally be able to play the game.
From playing on the beta… these are NO WHERE CLOSE to being as insignificant as racials. They clearly have more tuning passes to make (not just numbers… but fundamentally how some of these abilities work). The sky isn’t falling yet, but if they go live as they are right now… then this is going to be a disaster.
WoD had a much bigger issue than the dreaded hardcore. Namely the removal of flight which made dailies in general frustrating and annoying as well as being something people just loved. The Garrison also never had the charm of the farm. There was pretty much the same level of “casual” content as in mop but it took for bloody ever because of the war on flight.
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The problem with this arguement is twofold. One it occurs at max level and two it’s trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Especially after BFA where you just carry around a couple sets of azerite and can swap specs at will. Coming directly after legion it might have been semi accepted even then though it would be going back to early legion where they lost droves of players. They keep doubling down on the idea of forcing players to pick a single spec when they themselves ended the need in wod with tier sets changing based on spec along with base stats. Everytime it loses them so many players. People like freedom and for some reason blizzard doesn’t anymore.
Heck they started that trend towards freedom back in wrath with dual spec.
Yup but they backtracked hard in legion and lost a lot of subs. They were originally going to go hard on it in bfa as well they talked about making azerite gear unrespeccable which obviously would have been awful.
They don;t even care about game play, they want as Ion put it, “Overwatch with raids”. They want all abilities of all covenants, easily obtainable, and with the ability to change the load-out fight by fight.
Fundamentally, they want to be able easily compare themselves to other equally equipped players of the same class and brag about their skill. This is what success and the game means to them. It is stark contrast to those that want more of an RPG game where choices matter. Where you choose to be slightly stronger at one thing at the expense of another ((ie. better at Single Target at the expense of AOE). Others in your guild choose to be stronger at the things you are weaker, for the good of the whole guild.
I hate to wholesale lump playstyles in to groups, but it seems that those most interested in PvP and Min/Maxi playstyles (mythic raiders) dislike the system the most.
Let’s be fair here… “Overwatch with raids” and “Infinite stars” are two opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to this. OwR is playstyle that has literally zero RNG, and your output is 100% down to you. Not even preach wants that and he’s stated such… IS on the other hand is the polar opposite where your entire output is down to a random proc completely out of your control. Not even Ion wants that.
We all want something nearer to the middle with preach leaning more towards OwR and Ion leaning more towards IS. To me… as it is right now… I’m with preach on this. Right now (and it looks like it’ll continue into SL), I have somewhere between 10-15 completely RNG buffs that effect my character. We used to have like 1-3. I have no control over these buffs, but depending upon how they proc will greatly effect my output. It’s why on some pulls I burst for 300k, and on others I burst for 200k. That’s a ridiculous variance of which has nothing to do with me.
The fact that Ion also confirmed preach’s theory that it’s all these random buffs in the background that are contributing to the world lag in heavily populated zones is the nail in the coffin for me… We really need to consider toning down how much RNG is inherently built into our characters.
You can’t create content that heavily incentivizes min/max… then tell players that they’re wrong to want to min/max.
Make raids and m+ as easy as classic and remove competitive PvP. Then I’ll be perfectly fine with these sorts of systems. But so long as end-bosses take min/maxer’s 200-600 pulls (depending on the boss) to kill… No. Don’t cut us off at the knees and tell us we still have to hit the same bar.
I agree with you on this.
BTW, I do not want to imply that the game play that someone likes is wrong or invalid. But on some level the three play styles are at odds, and it will take a very talented game-designing team to pull off enough elements and depth to satisfy three distinctly playstyles: PvP which is inherently Min/Max, PvE-RPG where the journey and experiences is more important the destination, and PvE-Min/Max where success is measured by speed, efficacy and efficiency. I don’t know if they can do it.
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I seen someone else post that, with a link. Dont recall which thread, they said accounts, also US only.
Best I can find is FF14 Census, which claims there is 279k Active Characters (Not accounts). In the US, and 647k in the world. (active character means logged in at all in the last 30 days) (I cant post links, look up FF14 Census)
Last I seen for BFA, its 1.7 million for wow. Which good lord, I hope that is wrong.
funny enough Ions “Overwacth with Raids” was laughable.
His context was that if 2 hunters were there, the one that played Better should not be higher on the DPS charts, and in doing so you have Overwatch with raids.
That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. So what he wants, is ZERO skill in WOW. You should not be awarded for being better player? Better at a class? Better at a content type? We should just have an RNG welfare lottery?
Why even play at all then? Why not just let the character play for you, and you just watch and make story decisions at timed intervals.
Yes, if you have 2 Same geared Hunters in a raid encounter, the one that presses their buttons more efficiently should do more damage. You have to be braindead to correlate that to Overwatch with raids. That was the stupidest comment I have ever seen made by a wow dev, and there has been some Doosies for SL, like “Multidotting is too hard”.
I get the Arguement of “Well your only better at X boss, where Y is better at Z boss” Well people will easily fix that, they will bring Hunter 1 for X boss and sit him for Z and bring hunter Y.
Even the non Hardcore guilds will do this, as its the only way they will progress. The road to min maxing around Covenants, will have people excluded not just in PUGs, on the fights they are weak at.
The changes to raiding that allow this, will just enforce it even more.
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Mythic raiders probably will do this, but Family guilds will not. So that is crux of the the million dollar question: For whom do you design the game? Average players or Mythic raiders? Can you satisfy both, and if not, whom do you favor?
edit: BTW, I do not presume to be smart enough to answer this question.
If Covenants were changeable at will you have basically designed that game.
It is not a hard question to answer. You satisfy the largest population. Piss off the top 5% and lets say they quit. The former 6-10% is now your top 5% and you still have a fine game. Piss off the bottom 20-30% and you likely do not have a game anymore. These numbers are just random selections but it helps to answer which one you side with IF you can not satisfy both.
The problem isn’t limited Covenant choice but limited ability choice. I don’t mean that all abilities should just be copy+pasted to every Covenant, but that the Covenants need a wider variety to encompass all types of play.
And the current system will piss off everyone except the 2% who want to stick it to the dreaded min maxers