I agree, but M+ don’t deserve raid quality gear either.
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That’s for max level Valor upgrades… only need+5s for first dungeon plateau and +10s for second Plateau… that being said, not sure I’m totally on board with these requirements. It forces people to do content they may not want to do (reasons: bad experiences in certain dungeons, no particular upgrades in said dungeons, etc.) In order to upgrade gear they worked hard for.
Of course, there’s always the old-fashioned way of trusting the rng gods in dungeons, but, we all know how that usually ends up…
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From blizzard perspective, gating everything behind achievements means that 1) hardcore players have to repeat the same content 20x longer before their treadmill is done and 2) it offers an RMT skip to casuals that go straight to blizz’s pocket. I really don’t see them changing this anytime soon. People can pretend like blizzard cares about the “you have to earn your gear” mantra, but they literally sell gold for money and boosting is half the premade groups in the group finder.
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To be fair the elite players already did +15s with really bad gear. It just goes to show how awful most players in the game really are.
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Wrong. You just need to beat +5 on all 8 dungeons. And you could get ilevel 184 loot items upgradable to ilevel 207. I just did it last night. My necklace was ilevel 200 looted from M+10. I upgraded it to 203 then to 207 for 250 valors each.
You have ilevel 197 helm and trinket. You have ilevel 200 neck, shoulder, bracers, ring, trinket. You can get upgrade gear on M+ and upgrade it to ilevel 207. Stop whining.
BTW, you cant get upgrade yet. Complete a +5 ON ALL 8 DUNGEONS. I have done +5 on all 8 dungeons long time ago. When I log’d in to 9.0.5, an achievement popped out on me immediately that I completed M+5’s on all 8 dungeons… forgot the name.
Oh a Idea for a game with no Gimmicks, no catches. Just play and get running. I would even argue that the gear from before the patch doesn’t even require being eligible. A system to freely play the game to your will and upgrade with Valor points to 220 Is perfectly healthy enough. And I also agree with your last sentiment as well.
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It’ll probably do that in 9.1. As for now, you’ve reached the end of that gearing path, which happens at every level.
Mythic 15 dungeons are easily on par with heroic raiding. They do challenging content, they get their rewards for doing so.
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The upgrade requirement for upgrading gear is account-wide. Just finish KSM on your main (if you haven’t done so already), and then you’re done. I don’t see what the issue is 
It still isn’t as good as PvP gearing, since PvP allows you to farm/target specific slots, but it’s account-wide so your alts can immediately start upgrading their gear (assuming they have valor points).
I wish there was a way to “target” or “buy” specific M+ pieces that you want, that would bring it more in line with PvP gearing. Who knows, maybe they’ll add some kind of vendor for that.
I disagree. M+ is ultimately a race, raiding is not. There is allot of careful planning and assembling the right team for the job in raiding, that is lacking in M+, all M+ is a glorified version of challenge modes mixed in with new released cata heroic difficulty.
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Sorry for the late response, was teaching a class.
I think that there will always be players who ask for more, but it would help me feel like I had something to work towards imo.
That’s sort of the point though, isn’t it? To always have progression, to never have an end? That’s what keeps the game alive; constant new things to do and new goals to make.
I’m glad you are getting that gear! 
I think 220 is more higher end gear and not what I’m advocating for for “extreme” casuals. I still do firmly believe that gear = commitment. I just want to see more options for gear.
Yes.
You’re making the assumption that people raid just for gear, but I’ve always believed that people do what they find most fun and engaging in the game. Lots of people raid for the excitement and adrenaline and community. They raid to achieve things. I’m not proposing removing gear from raids; I’m proposing adding gear to other areas of the game that people find similarly fun and engaging for their own play style.
Yes, but if you read any of my comments, you saw that I disagreed with OP and presented new arguments for 207 gear.
Something does not have to be challenging to be fun, and I disagree with the notion that players should only get gear just to defeat a challenge. Sometimes we want gear just to be better at what we are already doing, which is the same argument that can be applied to anyone in any content.
This is another paper straw argument though; content can be anything from world quests, to PvP, to covenant progression, to raiding and Mythics. But right now, only a few of those provide highest level gear. I disagree with thinking that only some of the content should be rewarding. We saw in BFA all play styles be rewarded, and in my opinion, it was a more successful system that what is implemented now.
Agreed. My argument actually also helps raiders because of great vault dupe complaints and lack of raid drops.
I agree. I’m not saying that people who only do world quests should have the top tier in the game. I do still believe that higher level gear should be given to players who can meet the challenge. But I also want to propose that 207-210 gear, which is still lower than high end Mythics, is available to players who can’t meet that challenge or don’t have the time commitment weekly to meet that challenge, but can make a time commitment over a few weeks.
That’s a really good idea.
Sadly I’m in the thesis route. Pray for me.
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No. That’s not what the Valor system was for. Not even from the beginning.
That was me yesterday! We have a designated holiday today though because our March Break was moved to April so my board decided to just keep this PD day without the PD.
Good luck! My wife went thesis route and I went course work; I feel ya! Worth it though 
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the issue is valor needs to be increased for higher keys. 135 valor base with 10-15 extra per keystone lvl.
two handed weapon is 12k valor from rank 0-12 that’s 89 dungeons.
this makes it harder for the casual players as every bit of gear helps, but u don’t want there to be that much of a grind that it looks impossible to achieve.
ive done all 15s and achieved ksm, but this is beyond a joke. its around 134 dungeons to rank everything from rank 9 to 12, that’s double the amount of dungeons then i have actually done on my main.
back in legion there wasn’t any of this gear issue with players as you were able to obtain close to mythic lvl loot, with the means of titan-forging and war-forging through dungeons. plus there was a lot more loot. Most guilds didnt finish the raiding tiers any faster. players have this selfish mentality when it comes to loot (if you’re not raiding then you don’t deserve higher quality loot). What if you wanted to push M+25s? are you telling me only raiders are allowed too? In WoD the game became stale due to the lack of content and the fact blizzard gave up on the xpac (blizzards words). alot of guilds fail to stay afloat with the lack of geared players, having another outlet for gearing at a high lvl allowed guilds to maintain a steady flow of players. you can already see the decline in guilds this xpac due to the lack of geared player
players being selfish about raiding gear will kill the game completely
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The leader of Limit himself said repeatedly that composition more or less does not matter. It’s also a lot easier for you to fit what you need into a group of 20 than it is for a group of 5.
You can think what you want, but to call M+ not challenging and only a race is just wrong.
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If one took the time to look at raid progression and mythic plus progression. 95 percent of the player base is “CASUAL” Almost no one does hard content. So all the people going back and forth on here are most likely STATISTICALLY “Casual”. Look at the stats they don’t lie.
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Do you know that the top rank’d M+ group have careful planning and assembling of the right team against the affix of the week to get the top 10 spot?
And the experienced veterans came up with a meta to achieve this. But this meta is being followed by lowbie players on their lower keys. And these lowbie players dont know that it is not necessarily applicable to them becoz lower keys have very forgiving timers. All specs/classes could beat M+15. The meta is really for those above M+15s.
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You throw around some big weight with your smacking words. Yet I’m thinking why are you so aggressively defending content you don’t even do yourself. I digress. I have many Alts, and I don’t want to push a Main. I want to do Random BG’s and have a chance at Victory. Occasionally I want to do dungeons as well. Instead of pushing High end content, which Is the Gimmick right now. I don’t want to deal with crazy ppl over Raider IO. I Instead would rather relax, play an alt and enjoy myself. That Is my perspective. And I seriously don’t understand yours. All things considered I would figure that would benefit YOU TOO!
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Not worried about gear itself more imo worried about getting to the gear without feeling like a boring hot mess.
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It is as I say it, sorry if it hurts your feelings.
As for limit, I could care less for them. They make a living off of raiding, and should not be considered the same as a normal group trying to form.
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